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Miss Information

How much does my friend's boyfriend have to suck before I'm allowed to say something?


By Cait Robinson

Have a question? Email . Letters may be edited for length, content, and clarity.

Dear Miss Information,

I'm a forty-one-year-old woman in a long-term relationship. My concern is over my lifelong crush. We met around age twenty. Both of us were dating other people, and somewhere in our late twenties, we had sex once. During that weekend he revealed his years-long love for me, and asked me to move in with him. I sensed he wasn't over his ex, so though I admitted all the feelings I'd been harboring for him, and couldn't resist having sex with him, I passed on all the other commitments, and told him why. He shut me out, acting hurt. Six years ago, we reconnected online, and have met in person, and been friends since then.

We've both since admitted to being closeted polyamorous folk, and that we're still attracted to each other. But when I asked my significant other for an open relationship, he flat-out refused. I accepted, and explained the whole thing to my friend; I apologized for everything, told him I still had feelings for him, and that I'd just have to live with it. He found a woman to have a monogamous relationship with, though I know that doesn't suit him any better than mine suits me.

Since then, he's been increasingly callous and cold with me — not at all the caring man I was holding a torch for all these years. He makes plans and doesn't show, takes my money and just expects more. He even asked me to buy expensive concert tickets for us to use, didn't show, then pretended he knew nothing about it. Every time, I do what he asks, and it just breaks my heart when he lets me down, every time. I keep hoping to mend the connection we once had.

Recently, I walked out. Literally, figuratively, de-friended, all that. I've gotten two emails. "Hey, what happened," and "Hey, things have been shitty for me these last two months, so I apologize if I did or said anything to offend you." This tells me he just doesn't get it, and worse, he may just not give a damn at all like I thought he did. Is it best to remain incommunicado, as we clearly can't see eye-to-eye on this? I still love the friend I thought he was — I'm just not sure if he still is or ever was that person. What would you do?

Perplexed Poly-Anna

Dear Perplexed Poly-Anna,

This is a Russian nesting doll of a question, so we'll crack open a few of the bigger issues before we get to the center. Is it possible that the reason you're fixated on this guy at all is because your current relationship isn't doing it for you? I'm glad you respected your boyfriend's wishes, but, generally speaking, if you find yourself gazing out the window to a slow-motion montage of the good times you and this dude had, then you're almost definitely not present and happy in your current relationship. I'm not telling you to break up; I'm just suggesting that that might be an area for introspection.

Now, on to the crush. Unless he suffered massive head trauma in the last ten years, it is highly unlikely that your formerly thoughtful, kind friend has somehow become unable to grasp basic etiquette principles like "show up when you say you will." I would argue that the sepia-toned anecdote from yesteryear doesn't exactly paint him as an emotionally healthy guy, even then — what you told him didn't warrant him shutting you out in response. That's not the behavior of a good friend, let alone a good lover.

I don't think that he "doesn't get it" or that he "doesn't care." I can almost guarantee that he is playing dumb in a bid to slip out of blame. If he didn't get it, he wouldn't have the capacity to be, as you say, "callous." Manipulators are highly socially aware; they just use their powers for evil, not good. He obviously cares enough to keep you around, but not enough to stop disappearing on you, lying to you, and dragging you through the mud. As a cherry on top, the brief emails he sent you were about him ("these few months have been shitty for me"), with no acknowledgement of your well-being. That is some Blue Ribbon Selfishness, and he wins a $25 gift certificate to Cracker Barrel.

I want to stress that this is not about you. This isn't an issue of, "If only he loved me the way I love him, he wouldn't do this." This is an issue of, "I am a level-headed person trying to interpret the movements of a deeply wounded individual." He has not proved himself to be worth the effort. Your sticking around will only subject you to more bad treatment, and will validate to him that he can keep you in his life while making no effort to be kind, decent, or even so-so.

 

Dear Miss Information,

My best friend recently met a guy who's "as screwed up as she is" (her words), and they became intensely close friends. He would turn to her for help with his then-girlfriend who gave him hell. After a few months he broke up with the girlfriend, and he and my friend had the "we're just friends" phase for about two weeks, until they decided that they are completely in love and should be together.

I don't trust her boyfriend for many reasons. I told her when he broke up with his girlfriend to wait — it was too much of a mess — and now she feels amazingly insecure every time the ex's name is mentioned. He and the ex are still friends. When her friends call, she jokingly says, "I don't have permission from him." Even if she's "allowed" to go out, he sends her all these guilt-tripping texts ("Go, have fun without me, I'll stay here alone," or "Hope you're enjoying your time while I'm here...") and she ends up feeling bad. She stopped wearing heels or wearing her favorite shirt because he doesn't like them, and she drops whatever she is doing to comfort him at any time.

She's a caring person and she's willing to diminish herself for the sake of people she cares about. That's why I feel like I need to step up. I think her boyfriend is emotionally abusive and possessive, but I feel like I'm blinded by my worry for her sake. Is this just me being paranoid? Or should I confront her? She seems happy usually, and I know my opinion will affect her, and maybe even poison her relationship. I'm scared to move.

Helicopter Friend

Dear Helicopter Friend,

If your gut reaction is that this guy is possessive or even abusive, then trust it. You should always feel entitled to express concern for a friend's well-being, so don't lose yourself in worry about your rights.

The much dicier issue is how to approach her. You are much more useful as a friend than as a narc, so tread lightly. Outside relationships are acutely important when there is a possible abuser in the picture, so ensuring that she considers you a confidante and a source of support is vital. When you broach the issue, take the angle of her behaviors, not his. "You never wear your favorite T-shirt anymore! Why is that?" is much less accusatory than "He told you to stop wearing that shirt, didn't he?" The former will open her up; the latter will shut her down.

Use this method to address all of the changes you find unsettling. Try talking about how her changed personality affects you: "Hey, it worries me when you say he doesn't give you permission to come out with us." Even if she laughs and makes excuses, knowing that her friends have noticed a change in her will likely stick in her memory. She may not be able to see these things herself, but if she hears them from enough people, she may start develop a more critical eye.

You say you know your opinion will affect her relationship. So lead her toward positive things: toward remembering the good people she has in her life; toward knowing that she doesn't need to compromise herself to get affection; toward recognizing her own strengths. If that affects her relationship, it'll only be for the best possible reasons.

Commentarium (38 Comments)

Sep 17 11 - 12:24am
m-m-m

Helicopter Friend uses the term "emotionally abusive" which is a very strong phrase to use. Based on what little information she provides, I don't think "emotionally abusive" is the right term here - maybe "controlling" and "possessive" but "abusive"?

Sep 17 11 - 3:56am
hmm

being controlling and possessive is abusive

Sep 17 11 - 4:08pm
babyjane

Someone who is controlling and possessive this early in a relationship is much more likely to slide into physical and emotional abuse later on. That second letter really resonated with me, because I was in an abusive relationship for 3+ years that started off in an eerily similar way. Sure, at first it wasn't a big deal that he told me to dress a certain way and limited the time I could spend with my friends, but these were symptoms of crippling insecurity and anger that led to physical, emotional, and sexual violence that will always be with me. It's better to overreact to red flags like this early on, before you're stuck.

Sep 18 11 - 12:26am
Ryan

So a relationship like that can SLIDE INTO emotional abuse. That doesn't mean that's what it is right now. Please, let's not diminish actual abuse by calling some passive-aggressive texts "emotional abuse". They're huge red flags, yes, but if every boyfriend who felt threatened by his girlfriend going on on the weekend was abusive, society as a whole would just crumble.

Sep 18 11 - 9:50am
andrea

It's not that he feels threatened that's the issue--it's that he has pressured her to change her behavior and succeeded in his efforts. It is abuse. She should get out now.

Sep 18 11 - 1:21pm
nope

Wait--no. Even in the most aggressive vision of this story--where the guy is being every bit as aggressive and controlling as the LW says, and the friend really is being dragged through this relationship--it is NOT abuse, as it stands, right now. Red flags? Possibly. Abuse? Hell no. To say that asking your girlfriend to change her wardrobe is abuse is hugely overzealous, and hugely diminishing to actual abuse. Face it: you don't know the details of this relationship. You know a biased, third-party opinion of it, that is based mostly on the fact that the friend is pulling away from her. Who knows? Maybe the friend is making excuses because she'd rather spend time with her boyfriend than her friends; maybe that shirt looks just like the one his ex girlfriend wore when she broke up with him; maybe it has a giant picture of a cat taking a dump on Jesus' face, and it gets them kicked out of restaurants whenever they go out. I know plenty of people that have made minor wardrobe changes for the sake of their partners--guys that have started wearing more button-downs and fewer T-shirts, or stopped wearing those little seashell necklaces; girls that have started wearing sundresses or prettier negligee. I know plenty of people that have gotten a whiny text from their SO as they're out spending time with friends. They are NOT victims of abuse. While it is possible that the LW is picking up on genuine red flags, and highly advisable for her to be honest with her friend about her concerns (if she's wrong, the friend will probably just laugh it off) and keep a watchful eye out, calling this 'abuse' is straight-up insulting.

Sep 18 11 - 1:43pm
blahblah

she's concerned, there's a reason she turned to Cait for advice, since she obviously has second doubts about that story, so maybe it was incorrect to call this abuse, but don't dismiss her story just because she's a bit overzealous. @nope- thank you for being reasonable, your comment is great!.

Sep 18 11 - 9:40pm
roc

the relationship described in the second letter is definitely proto-abusive- i.e. it is certainly the way abusive relationships generally begin (i know this both from personal experience and the stories of others). however, it is also true that not every whiny, needy boyfriend is an abuser. the thing is, there's only one way to know for sure, which is for the girlfriend to put her foot down and say 'no' to some of his demands. if he can accept that, if he can understand that she might always do some things differently than he likes, it's fine. if he can't, though, and makes it into an ever-escalating emotional battle until she gives in... there's no good ending to that story.

Sep 17 11 - 1:46am
Go Cait!

Great advice.

Sep 17 11 - 1:55am
well

Cait nailed it. This phrase:
"Hey, things have been shitty for me these last two months, so I apologize if I did or said anything to offend you."

is manipulator-speak for "Hey, I know full well I've been an asshole to you, but your presence and approval validate my behavior, so would you come back and let me shit on you again?"

Sep 23 11 - 7:49pm
@well

You are an excellent manipulatese interpreter. You should work for the UN.

Sep 17 11 - 10:34am
TAK

I don't identify with either scenarios as presented, but the advice certainly reaffirms a very painful decision I had to make this week to cut ties with someone I have cared about very much. His excuses for bad behavior were textbook and it took him calling me selfish when I got mildly miffed that he didn't call when plans changed for me to finally say enough is enough. Thanks for the affirmation, Cait.

Sep 18 11 - 11:11am
CaitRobinson

@TAK I am so glad to hear it.

Sep 17 11 - 12:48pm
Jax

Huh. Second one is spot on. The first story - well, the reason 90% of the people who write in to advice columns do so is to get their side of the story validated, and you've certainly done that. I'm not going to say it reads like complete BS to me, but that is a highly massaged tale of woe.

Sep 17 11 - 3:10pm
nope

I would say that for both of them. The second one definitely pinged for me as completely devoid of perspective--the helicopter friend can barely entertain the idea that the boyfriend isn't an abusive asshole. She also completely victimizes and disempowers her friend, assuming that none of the choices the friend has made -- when to hook up with the guy (against the LW's wishes, heaven forbid), when to hang out with her friends, how much of herself to devote to her boyfriend -- can be valid. They must be the work of some masterfully manipulative man.

The fact that the LW talks about the boyfriend disempowering her friend but uses words that do the same thing indicates to me that the relationship between the LW and the friend has similar power dynamics at play (where one is used to making decisions and the other is used to following them). And you know what? That's not necessarily a bad thing. Some people enjoy being comforting, caring and supportive, rather than independent. Both kinds of people need to exist in order to make the world work, and both kinds of people can be wonderful. So if she's the kind of person who's prone to "diminishing" herself for a loved one, maybe that's just the kind of person she prefers to be in relationships, not something the boyfriend is forcing on her.

Sep 17 11 - 9:14pm
Anon

Crazy good insightful, Nope.

Sep 18 11 - 11:29am
CaitRobinson

@Jax Could be--and I certainly understand your point. On the other hand, so often we know an issue is fucked-up and we know where the chips should fall, but we get caught up in our own excuses/ "what-if?"s and lose sight of north and south. But not of mixed metaphors. We always have our eye on mixed metaphors.

For LW1, she clearly thinks something is wrong, so she writes in for validation. And she gets it. But why she is reaching out is the important point here: she likely just needs an external perspective to bolster the internal voice telling her what's up. This is subtly different than having "their side of the story validated." It's not about saying "oh, you poor, sweet, victim. Let me get you a cookie." It's about saying, "This is a problem as I see it, so I support you making the changes you are now second-guessing."

Sep 18 11 - 2:06pm
Jax

Agree to disagree. Maybe it's the name of the letter writer -- do you pick the names or do they? Because I understand the evocation of the idealized, optimistic innocent, but Pollyanna was, you know, eleven. We're talking about an adult here, throughout. If you're looking for a movie where a grown woman persists in engaging in childlike behavior long after it ceases to be cute and ends up wondering why everyone is so goshdarn mad at her, "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" is a fun flick.

I'll just take the first part of the story: had she said, "Yeah, had a good friend who I knew was in love with me. One night, I wasn't feeling that great about myself, there wasn't anything good on TV, wine was present: nature took it's course" -- No problems there. That is a totally believable story.

Where I get a little dubious is in the harsh light of day where she tells him, not asks him but tells him, that he's not over his ex. Well, by God, that was charitable of her. Sex AND a therapy session? And a therapist who, rather than asking you probing questions or making insightful comments, will just come straight out and tell you what your problem is. Like Dr. Phil!

Then, he cuts her off and acts hurt. He isn't actually hurt, mind you. He's "acting" hurt. It's a subtle distinction, but keen psychological insights like that are second nature when you're like our heroine: a noble, wide-eyed innocent who can read minds.

I can feel the "ARE YOU SAYING SHE OWED HIM SOMET--" Let me cut you off there. No. She owed him nothing. It's not the story I have an issue with, it's a pretty boilerplate "Hey, here's why it's a bad idea to bang the person who's in love with you, no matter how much you might enjoy banging them back" type tale. It's the protestations of innocence over a decade and a half of trying to have her cake and eat it too that I have a problem with.

Look, not to "A Time To Kill" this whole situation on you, but say I'm talking to a friend, describing this situation: "Yeah, so I slept with Jess the other night. Yeah. I know, finally, right? Well, she's been in love with me forever, so it was bound to happen. Together? Nah, I'm not really into that. Told her she was still into Jim. Yeah, I just told her that. Look, she IS. They dated for like four years. Anyway, now she's acting all hurt. Won't even pick up the phone."

What combination of actions do I have to take to be blameless in this situation? Is the post-sex conversation, where I take her by the hand, look her in the eye and calmly explain her true feelings to her? How do I have to handle this so I can write off any negative consequences as this hysterical woman exhibiting "not the actions of a good friend, let alone a good lover"? I'll bet there are at least a few total dicks who reads this column, and I'm sure they'd love the advice.

Sep 18 11 - 2:12pm
Jax

Oh, let me tag on thing on. Fifth paragraph, that full sentence should have been "I can feel the "ARE YOU SAYING SHE OWED HIM SOMET--" coming from the comment board."

@Cait, although we may disagree on the nature of manipulation vis-a-vis LW1, I have nothing but respect for your logic and would never accuse you of riding the Shift key like that. :)

Sep 18 11 - 6:19pm
CaitRobinson

@Jax: Agree to disagree, and thanks! Though I do love a good, hyperbolic string of caps-lock-for-comedic-effect, so that's a big handshake on riding the shift key. Look at us, reaching across the aisle. Adorable.

Off-topic, but you asked: most LWs make up their own monikers. I leave them most of the time, and much of the time they are really witty! Clever LWs, clever. But occasionally I change them for succinctness or flow or what-have-you. In "Poly-Anna"'s case, she made it up, and I left it because it was cute and indicative of her perspective. Things I am likely to change include clunky names like "Science Student Who Just Wants To Know Why She Won't Call" or boring ones like "Wondering." Occasionally someone won't make up a moniker at all, in which case I slap something on the letter. But for the most part, I try to leave letters as intact as I can, and that includes their monikers.

Sep 17 11 - 1:27pm
JCF

Helicopter Friend, her boyfriend sounds controlling, but, you know, controlling isn't always as bad as it sounds, especially if her life is a mess whenever she makes her own decisions. Controlling becomes bad if there is physical violence involved, or if "happy" turns into "trapped", or if she feels like she has to make a major life decision to stay with him (move across country, or have his baby). Shirts and heels aren't that important. As her friend, you can help her keep this in balance. I think for now, you can let her know that you're happy as long as she's happy, but that she can trust you for advice if she starts to feel overly pressured.

Sep 17 11 - 3:40pm
LD

"Controlling becomes bad if there is physical violence involved..." so on and so forth.

Really? Things are not this black and white, and emotional abuse is not this black and white. Please educate yourself on emotional abuse before you start saying things like "controlling isn't always as bad as it sounds." Any healthy relationship allows freedom of choice for both parties, in all areas. There should be no "parent" calling any shots. If the woman isn't healthy enough to make healthy decisions for herself, then she needs the freedome to learn from her own mistakes. Or be allowed to create enough pain for herself so she will seek professional outside help.

Sep 17 11 - 9:21pm
Bat

I don't think there is a single definition for what an emotionally controlling relationship is or looks like. If she's happy and he isn't treating her poorly (pathetic guilting tactics seem more annoying to me than anything), then Helicopter friend should alight to another pad (eh? eh?).

Maybe she doesn't wear heels anymore because they fucking suck and are terrible for your back and feet. Maybe her boyfriend is a chiropractor who wants her to have a healthy spine. I wish my boyfriend was a chiropractor. And that I had a healthy spine.

Sep 18 11 - 12:25am
durr

Sometimes (not all the time) it's a precursor to more severe retrictions and demands. Shirts and heels aren't important; so ideally, a good partner shouldn't give a crap (but of course, there are those men and women who are overly critical about the appearances of others). But, as Bat pointed out, best case scenario is that her friend has a needy and annoying boyfriend.

Sep 18 11 - 11:53am
9pumpchai

@bat LOL perfect comment.
@jinna noo shit riight. cait is brilliant.

Sep 17 11 - 10:49pm
Jinna

Since Caitlin is not psychic and works with the info she has while using extremely intuitive read-between-the-lines-based-on-emprical-observations-in-life, I think again she has done a great job.

Sep 18 11 - 2:59pm
Sparrow

Wow. There are some people on this thread who are stunningly ignorant about abuse. Abuse is a process beginning with slowly wearing down the victim's self esteem and autonomy, cutting off contact from other sources of support such as friends and family, and making them dependent on the abuser. What she describes is TEXT BOOK early abuse. It's only once the person being abused is mostly isolated and the abuser is fairly sure they are unable or unwilling to seek help that the abuse escalates to more severe emotional and verbal abuse or physical abuse.

It's people like the ones in this thread minimizing the damage that makes this process possible. There are resources out there. Educate yourself on the cycle of abuse and help your friend access these resources. Ultimately, she'll have to do this herself, but it will be easier for her if she knows she's not alone and she knows what help there is out there. The best thing you can do is help her feel like she still has autonomy and bolster her self esteem so she doesn't have to be so dependent on this man.

Sep 18 11 - 11:57pm
Big Bird

....Or maybe it isn't. It is commendable of you to point out the warning signs of abuse, but you should keep in mind that it is just that - a warning sign. It isn't "textbook" early abuse. It is a short letter from a third party describing behavior, from the lens of a biased person, that could possibly escalate in the future into more damaging behavior. At this point, I think it is reasonable to only see a needy guy and an otherwise happy girl in flats and her second string shirt and nothing more. Nothing wrong with keeping an eye out for more "signs" but there is something wrong with telling a person that she is in a relationship that suits her but does not suit you.

Sep 19 11 - 8:11am
JCF

This is why I said the best thing the friend can do is let her know she'll be there for her no matter what. It doesn't force the end of a relationship that everyone's happy in and may not turn into abuse, and it also prevents the isolation process, or will at least make it apparent if it's happening.

Sep 19 11 - 10:38am
hankb

Jesus, after reading all of the above commentary no wonder I have zero interest in dating...

Sep 19 11 - 1:00pm
cc

+1 for the second question. please mention it to your friend.

Sep 19 11 - 3:03pm
afex

@Jax
Okay, so I'm in pretty much the same situation as LW1: slept with a friend who is probably in love with me, but whom I have no romantic interest in, and now am trying to smooth things over. I never led him to believe that anything but more casual sex would come of it (me: "this is fun, but due to [insert life situations here], I'm not looking for a relationship with you." him: "Agreed; I'm capable of separating sex from emotions, so no worries"). But I felt wrong anyway and decided I had to end the fling. I think your assessment of Pollyanna's situation is spot-on, and I've been trying not to subject my friend to similar BS (stop "acting hurt", you crazy person, and just get over it), but it is hard. I'm trying to be compassionate while giving him space, but every week he comes up with another peripheral reason to be mad at me. And sometimes I am mad back-- "ARE YOU SAYING I OWE YOU SOMETHING??"-- but thus far I've managed not to show it.

So since you got Pollyanna's number, do you have any advice for me on how to approach this situation? Ideally I'd like us to remain friends, but most importantly I'd like to keep the peace because we have many close mutual friends and due to [life situations], neither of us would be looked kindly upon if word got out that we hooked up.

Sep 19 11 - 6:07pm
Jax

I didn't actually disagree with the outcome of the situation; it sounded extremely toxic toward the end. The only difference Cait and I had was that she believed that the situation was the fault of one immature douche, and I thought the immature douche variable might be as high as two.

Just to get this in there - for the future, anything a guy agrees to before sex, you should probably think of the legal notice that pops up before you update your iTunes. He's definitely agreeing, he's definitely responsible for what he agreed to, and he's definitely, definitely not reading the fucking thing. He just kind of wants to get the music going at that point.

But yeah, regardless, you both kind of screwed up. You rolled the dice that he could squash his feelings, let you get yours and then shut the fuck up about it, which was pretty selfish, and he straight up lied about his feelings to get into your pants, which was dishonest. That's just how you wronged each other, never mind anyone inadvertantly dragged into it by [life situations.]

He's not mad at you because he's pining over your lost love, he's mad because he feels you treated him like he was disposable, like his feelings didn't matter at all. You're mad at him because, look, you told him exactly what you were going to do, and then you did it.

Without knowing anything else about your situation, I'd say put on your grown-up pants, meet him in a public, non-sexy place (may I suggest mall food court?) and have it out. Listen to his beef, talk to him about where you stand emotionally, let him know what's important to you to take away from this (respect of your peers, his friendship ideally), and see if you can get somewhere. It might work, it might not. To take a shot at one of Cait's enjoyably twisty metaphors, you two have already broken the eggs, you've already made (and eaten) the omlette, now you have to clean up the shit you've left lying around the kitchen.

One man's opinion. Cait, you want to take a shot at this one?

Sep 22 11 - 2:28pm
afex

Thanks! That's really helpful.

Sep 23 11 - 8:05pm
@Jax

I'm pretty sure you are the awesomest person to have ever commented on Miss Info's column. Please kindly clone yourself, and send one of the clones to Austin to hang out with me.

Sep 20 11 - 2:28pm
jac

you can talk and talk and talk all you want about what's good and what's not, but that person's going to be with who they want, anyway. my best friend has a guy she dated (and sometimes still sees) who literally pushes/hits her (i've seen the bruises). I've told her several times to call the police, take pictures, etc., but she always says one thing and does another. next time i'm making up her mind for her and calling the police. the friend has almost just as much of a problem as the abuser.

Sep 20 11 - 2:29pm
jac

and by friend, i mean the one in the relationship.
ps. if the andrea commenting here happens to be the one who let her boyfriend take advantage of her, STFU.

Oct 04 11 - 11:47pm
HB

I don't mean to sound cranky, but if someone is honestly into polyamoury, it's insulting to suggest that her interest in another guy is a result of being bored in her current relationship. It's fine to mention the possibility that she's stifled in a monogamous relationship, but to assume that one signifies the other is a really hard sell.

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