Miss Information
I haven't slept with anyone in five years. What's wrong with me?
Leslie Kwon
By Cait Robinson
Have a question? Email . Letters may be edited for length, content, and clarity.
Dear Miss Information,
Somewhere along the line between high school and college, I completely lost touch with women. I mean seriously. I had one somewhat serious girlfriend in high school (dated for a year) and numerous sexual partners. None extraordinary, none traumatic. College rolled around, and nothing improved. I graduated last year, and still have no lady friends to share a night or preferably nights with. With the exception of a single one-night stand, I have been sexless for five years. I feel broken.
I tried the online-dating thing, but nothing ever materialized; maybe I tried too hard. My friends all have girlfriends and the group is pretty isolated, so meeting people that way hasn't worked out either. I have tried broaching the topic with my older brother and close friends, and no one seems to be able to help me out. There is nothing I want more right now than to share myself with someone else. I don't need a wife, or a serious girlfriend; I just want women in my life again.
I am hopelessly out of ideas, and maybe I need a psychologist, not an advice columnist right now, but either way, I really want to work this out before I end up living a life of boredom, depression, and chronic masturbation. Please don't let it end that way. Help!
— XY seeks XX
Dear XY,
I wish I had a hot tip for you about capturing the heart of a lady. "If you can catch her in a mason jar, she'll be yours forever! Just poke air holes!" or "You can win her over by answering her three riddles correctly — but be careful, because if you get one wrong, she'll shoot you with her eye-lasers." Unfortunately, women are neither toads nor laser-sphynxes, but we're also not too hard to crack.
I suspect from your tone, XY, that you're selling yourself short. You've got some things going for you (a college degree, some relationship experience, an articulate and perceptive writing style), and yet you seem defeated. That view of yourself is the problem, not you as a person. The conclusion you draw is that new relationships will somehow glue you back together, but I beg to differ. You can't expect another person to fix you. Ever. So I want to shift your focus just a bit: solidify yourself first, and the rest will get infinitely easier.
It's entirely possible that a therapist will help you with that goal. So might an introspection-based practice like yoga or meditation. So might finding and mastering a hobby, anything that gives you a new sense of your own strength: martial arts, painting, interpretive ribbon-dance, whatever. Anything that allows you to step out of your "isolated" friend group is a good idea, too. Invest in some quality cocooning time, and you'll emerge an awesome, übermenschy butterfly.
As for your love life? Simply put, people are scary-good at reading each other. If a woman so much as senses the phrase "I feel broken," she'll climb out the nearest bathroom window. But if you can solidify your sense of self, that self-reliance will project. Self-reliance is in the real world what Axe is in Axe commercials. There's no great secret to how to meet women; the real key is in convincing them that you're a badass worth knowing. Before you can convince anyone else of that, you've got to believe it yourself.
Dear Miss Info,
In the past year, my life has turned into a John Hughes movie. I became interested in this guy who made tentative advances towards me, but then rebuffed me and began dating someone else. I moped and cried for a bit, but then told myself to forget about him and move on. Just when I thought I was over him, he broke up with the girl and came to me for comfort and advice. Against my better judgment, I decided that I should be there for him as a friend. We grew very close, and he's become one of my best friends. But my latent romantic feelings towards him have inevitably begun to resurface. We kissed on one occasion, and even got to third base on another, but agreed to remain as friends after both encounters.
Still, and perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part, I think he may feel the same way about me. He's always complimenting me and saying how much he cares about me, and is visibly jealous when I talk about or interact with other guys. He's also said things like "I'll always be there for you" and "when you're upset, I'm upset." My therapist thinks he is using me as a "hollaback girl" (for lack of a better term) and that I should cut him off, but I love him and don't want to lose him. At this point, the thought of him dating someone else is almost physically painful to me. What should I do?
— The Real Life Watts
Dear Real-life Watts,
Hold it. You have a therapist who uses the phrase "hollaback girl?" Does she speak entirely in misappropriated, outdated slang terms? If so, I want her number. She sounds jiggy.
In bleak, tough-love terms: not only is this guy not boyfriend material, he doesn't even seem like friend material. If he cared about you as much as he says he does, he'd change his behavior to be more respectful to your feelings and needs. Not only is he not doing that, he is holding you in limbo to ensure that you're available when he wants you to be. Big Miss Info thumbs down.
As it stands now, he's able to use you for validation, a safety net, and the occasional hook-up, and — thanks to the "we're just friends" loophole — owes you nothing in return. His terminologies are the real red flags here: phrases like "when you're upset, I'm upset" are cliché at best and manipulation-soaked at worst. His displays of jealousy aren't super-encouraging, either. Jealousy happens when someone sees a threat to the hold they have on someone or something. It's the adult equivalent of shrieking "Stop touching my Legos!", and is not an emotion of respect and equality. It's nothing to build a relationship on.
Expressing interest in another person is an intense and vulnerable thing to do, and this guy is taking advantage of your openness to doing it. Anyone who makes himself strong by keeping you weak is a leech, and not worth a second thought. Your use of phrases like "against my better judgment" signifies that you realize it, too. In short, Watts: the guy's bad news. But the therapist? Now there's a keeper.
Commentarium (87 Comments)
"übermenschy"
Why!?
I thought the same thing!
Because somehow "butterfly" seemed too girly, and sometimes I have to shout out to my hideously expensive education in order to keep myself from crying.
Goddamn excellent advice on both counts.
agreed
gotta love the "new" miss info!!
XY should check out Pickup Podcast on iTunes. Basically designed for exactly his situation.
Was the laser-sphinx thing a Never-Ending Story reference? Because holla, Never-Ending Story!
@nope: holla! I thought about linking to a picture, but wasn't sure if it was too vague a reference. Also, screen caps of VHS are universally crappy.
just awesome.
that reference seriously cracked me up.
I have the same problem as XY. except I didn't really have any series girlfriends until last year (I'm 21). Women just aren't attracted to me; I think it's because of two reasons, I'm fat and I'm incredibly shy. I put myself out there but deep down I'm very self conscious and I get terrified if a woman shows even the slightest hint of attraction. I've basically given up though; the definition of stupidity is trying repeatedly when you know you're going to fail, right?
It's not about what you are empirically- it's about what other people see when they see you.
So try something different. Get some talents and hobbies that you enjoy and which round you out as a human. Bonus points if they are social hobbies and get you meeting new people. Travel. Change jobs. Find some physical activity you can get in to and start shedding a few pounds (or, at least becoming more fit). You're unhappy with yourself, so solve that first.
If you're fat, then go exercise! That will keep you busy. Stop complaining and start doing!!!
Been There Done That. One GF at 20 and then no one until 25 (who turned out to be my wife and mother of my children). Once I resigned myself to bachelorhood and started devoting more time to my interests rather than kvetching about my shortcomings, I suddenly found myself meeting women. My wife is somewhat lucky she met me first, because the stream of women I had to beat off (no, not like THAT!) after I met her was something I was unaccustomed to.
Miss info, could you let go of the "breezy" writing style? "badass worth knowing" "awesome" "whatever" "so I want to" "I suspect" "unfortunately women are neither toads nor laser-eyed" (ha! so funny) "and yet you" "so might [doing this] so might [doing that]" "but I beg to differ" "Simply put" "Just a bit", "scary-good" or hey the really clever trying-too-hard joke at the beginning of the first answer. The second answer doesn't have this problem, but it's a common problem with your articles.
Readers do not care if you can bury your ideas under a million tiny displays of how "casual" or "easygoing" you are. No one is going to castigate you for not writing in enough of a "girly girl" style or having a lower word count. Readers care about you having a clear, eloquently stated point. The "casualness" makes that impossible and is used as an excuse to half-ass parts of an answer.
Anyone can write like a teenager. That's hardly a challenge. But even teenagers want to read the work of someone who writes like an adult.
As well, cliches ("there's no great secret" "invest in some quality time" "entirely possible" "got some things going for you") and trying to answer the authors' questions by psychoanalyzing their writing are also unnecessary word-count fillers. I assume the staff at hooksexup.com do not pay you by the word, so be reasonable.
Also, just so there's no doubt:
Jokes and figures of speech can be alright. If it is funny or insightful, rather than just a "cool" way of saying the same thing, then it should stay. Too many jokes and figures of speech in your answers are obviously there because you decided you wanted one there. There would have been no other reason to include them.
But who am I? The internet writing police? You are free to write as poorly as you'd like. And I am free to go somewhere else. But I am also free to suggest that if you wrote in a particular different way, your readers would like it.
I agree. Her writing style has always been too forced and always makes me cringe. I usually have to skim each paragraph to find the salient sentence or two. It reminds me of a high schooler who thinks that everything they say or wear has to be an opportunity to prove how "quirky" they are.
Instead of trying so hard to pepper your writing with cute phrases and "funny" references, spend those extra words actually saying something meaningful. If you don't have anything relevant to say, don't say anything at all.
Crikey. That's a bit harsh.
I notice these elements too, and they're not how I write, but I just accept it as part of Cait's texture. If it rubs you the wrong way, Bugger, try to just read past it for the underlying message.
But maybe you really just can't stand it. I do get that it happens with some people's style. I can't handle how the novelist Richard Powers writes, even though he deals with themes I'm really interested in, he's sold tons of books and heaps of people love him. It isn't his problem, it's mine. If it's like that, you're probably just going to have to shop somewhere else.
Don't go changing', Cait.
I, for one, don't read this column for serious, legitimate advice -- when I want real advice on my life I go to people who actually know me, and I really don't give a fuck on whether these people get their problems solved. The point of an advice column is the same as any other column -- to be an engaging piece of writing that entertains its audience.
And if you really can't understand the message because you're too busy trying to work out her attempts at humor, congrats, you might be on the spectrum.
I mean....stop reading her column. Wouldn't that be easier than telling her how you'd like her writing to change to suit your delicate eyes and senses?
@ sa: Better writing would make a column more engaging and entertaining. My criticism was aimed at the criteria you hold to be most important to an advice column. Contrived jokes and slang hardly in themselves make a piece "entertaining" for most people. My arguments were unconcerned with whether Cait's advice was "serious" and "legitimate."
That said, the author who affects a breezy manner does not necessarily produce "fun" or "relaxed" text; sometimes it just makes for a slog.
@ splendid: I'd add a caveat to your good point. You're right in that text cannot be objectively evaluated as universally "good" or "bad." It's true that every writer's target audience is readers who will be comfortable with his or her qualities. However I'd argue that developing certain qualities (readable, communicative, and genuinely novel) can usually satisfy and expand that writer's audience without sacrificing message or desired tone.
I don't mean to be harsh. The Miss Info columns are alright. As writing on the internet goes, they're well thought out. But I don't think we need to call it "perfect." I'm labeling it "needs improvement," and I think that's fair, @ BuggerOff. Incidentally, you know, I have written too much about this, so you get your request. I'll shut up.
bugger: Seconded, although you were a bit harsh. I can get behind the tone of your last post, though. Trying too hard to be "breezy" often results in sounding affected instead. From the evidence of past comment threads, it seems like Cait is open to constructive criticism, and as a writer who is trying to improve, would want to hear this kind of feedback. In this case, responding to bugger with "go read another column" is overly simplistic, because s/he was offering critical comments on one aspect of the column, rather than trashing the whole thing.
I honestly find Cait's style of writing a bit overly affected, too - even if that's how she would verbally respond to a friend of hers with a similar dilemma, it doesn't mean that that needs to be her writing style as well.
However, I can see that having a "casual" approach might make her responses more palatable to the letter-writers, if not other people. It's her opinion, and while she's being paid to provide it, that doesn't make her the Grande Dame of knowing what the hell to do with your life - just one opinion out of potentially billions in the world.
Dear Prudence's writer, for as wonderful as her advice may be in its own right, is extremely formal in her responses and in how she phrases things verbally, and when she's off in her advice (or when it's advice that a letter-writer may not want to hear) it can come off as judgmental and uptight because the syntax, grammar and word choice are so elevated.
Cait, by contrast, makes it clear by her style of writing that she's not taking herself too seriously, and that has merit of its own on a site like this. I think there's a middle ground that could be even better, though, and I do think it's fair to give reasonable criticism.
Bugger what the hell is your problem? You clearly have WAY too much free time on your hands, and fancy yourself a writing critic. You're not. You're just not. Read the column for what it is. And if you haven't figured that out you have no business reading the column, much less critiquing it.
Cait's writing, by the very nature of the column, is of course somewhat "breezy". And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Breezy is not a bad thing, no matter how much you try make it, bugger.
Bugger, your statements belie what you and others claim is reasonable criticism. "Write like a teenager"? I assume it would be an equally worthwhile criticism to say you "write like someone who has a stick firmly planted in their ass"? Or perhaps I don't find your writing "girly girl", but more "frustrated dyke with a master's in english, working at Starbucks".
Also, your idea that her writing somehow detracts from the quality of her answers, proves as well you just don't get what the column is about. The advice is an OPINION, nothing more. You may not agree with it (and from your posting, it's quite obvious you feel you could do much better) and you may think it stupid. But writing style, speaking style, communication style doesn't determine WHAT the message is. Surely you learned that in one of your many english classes. If not, perhaps you need to read more.
Plus, try a hobby or something. Poorly written personal attacks on someone's writing style (write like an adult? How was that not a slam?) couched as "reasonable criticism" suggests something a little less involved in human communication might be more your speed.
@ricochet -- Writing a five-paragraph essay to explain to someone else, who's already said they're going to stop responding, why they care too much -- now /that's/ comedy.
I personally like her writing style quite a bit. But that's not why I'm commenting here- I just wanted to point out that though we are debating her style, pretty much everyone agrees that the content of her advice rocks. So that when you (Cait) read these kind of subjective and not very polite comments, you might be able to pat yourself on the back for giving out really good advice.
I'm a fan! Keep up the good work.
@nope - the whole purpose is entertainment. I appreciate you didn't miss the point.
Cait's style is sometimes amusing, sometimes feels a little affected, but who knows, maybe that's her natural way, and I wouldn't ask her to change that. If it's a conscious style of hers...I'm still not sure if changing would improve the column, or it's value to either letter-writers (who might appreciate her attempts to "connect") or readers (some of whom want entertainment). But something to think about I guess.
I like her writing style. It's fun, and not preachy, and I think it works really well for giving advice. Constructively criticize away - but like Amy, I'm a fan!
Bugger, you are crazy. This column would be totally boring and lame if Cait's writing style weren't so damn sharp. She's hilarious and her voice is totally original, and if you want your advice without any wit or personality, perhaps you should consult a professional therapist.
Have you ever heard of this writer named Tina Fey? Is her style too "breezy" for you too?
Maybe Cait's style seems breezy to you because it is flying right over your dense and douche-y head.
Why read someone's column if you don't like the way they write? I don't understand the need to critique--this isn't a writing workshop; rather, this is the marketplace of ideas. You "pay" by viewing this column. You want to show Cait that you don't like her writing? Then stop reading the damn column. And if you want an advice column that follows your rules for writing (joke-free, cliche-free, fun-free), then start your own. Who knows--maybe in time you'll be the most-read.
And Cait -- I really dig the column. Yes, DIG!
I've always depended on the kindness of strangers.
What's funny about your comment is that I was actually basking in the beautiful irony of Bugger's verbose writing critique. Pretty sure Strunk and White were rolling in their graves at that one.
I love how obvious it is that everyone has copied and pasted their comments into a word document to ensure that their spelling and grammar are impeccable before letting their bitch off the leash. Nicely done all.
Right on Cait! :)
Is it possible the first dude can't land a girl because of his attitude toward them? I know if a guy approached me and said, "Hey, I have no intention of marrying you or even dating you seriously, but I *do* want to get laid so I can stop my chronic masturbation" I would RUN FOR THE HILLS!
Haha, nan! I thoguht the same thing!
Oops. *Thought. Sorry for the typo.
For XY - I am currently engaged to a guy who before me (we met when he was 30!) had never had a serious girlfriend and had been sex-less for a number of years. Now, we're a fantastic couple and he's hands down the best BF I've ever had. He says what made it work was 1) moving to a new city. There wasn't anyone new to meet, male or female, where he'd been and it took him out of his comfort zone and 2) just getting comfortable with himself. Apparently he'd had a bit of a puppydog problem that scared women off, but by the time I met him he had great things going on for himself in his life and was obviously just incredibly comfortable with who he was. That was crazy sexy to me. So, I'd say her advice is good, get comfortable with yourself, and put yourself in a situation to meet new people! Hang with new crowds, join a club or hobby, something with social interaction and a lot of nice people around. You can't get with someone if you never meet them. There is hope! The amount of time between ladies isn't a forever curse, and has no bearing whatsoever on how quality they will be when they roll around again ;-)
I'm currently in the same situation as your fiance was (particularly the girlfriend & sex...*groan*). I am currently looking to move to a different city for precisely the same reasons. I am in a funk, and not the P.Funk kind of funk.
Oh shut up. She does a great job. Keep up the amazing work!
Confidence is key, but agree 100% it cannot be manufactured. Women can smell it in an instant (and I wouldn't be surprised if somehow there is a real scent associated with self-doubt). To use an extreme example - Notorious BIG had a ton of play. B/c he had talent and honesty. Not physically attractive in the normal sense, but attractive nonetheless. There is no reason an average person can't build themselves into someone really fucking great.
I love you, Caitlin, and your writing style. You're not writing for Miss Manners, so keep everything exactly the same.
@Steve
That is not a good definition of stupidity! Take a break if you want to, but don't sell yourself or your happiness short. With dating, everyone fails, always, in te end, no matter what... until they suddenly don't.
@ bugger
Maybe your advice is welcome, maybe not, but remember that the column is free. If you don't enjoy it, you're free to stop reading it!
really good advice
XY: it's simple to meet people - turn your self-doubt inside out. if you're feeling nervous, imagine that the person you're talking is just as nervous as you and ask yourself, "what do you wish someone would say to you in order to make you more at ease?" works in most situations (TSA patdowns excepted).
I would hope that "XY seeks XX" would be open to an XY with androgen insensitivity syndrome.
Hahahahahahahaha!!!! Am I a nerd for laughing super hard at this?
I haven't had sex in 5 years (I'm 31 now). I blame it more on laziness. Most of my friends are nerdy guys like me, which means I have to go out of my way to meet women; I just haven't felt motivated for the past couple years. I assume it'll happen eventually. The problem is that the pool of nice, attractive, interesting women grows smaller as the pool of bizarre (but not interesting), less attractive, and jaded pool of women grows larger with each year...
Yes, the reason you have not had sex in 5 years is because "the grapes are too sour anyway." Great job on the cognitive dissonance Jeffie!
@XY: Along with all the other great advice already given, here's a side bit. If you think part of your problem is that you're terrible at picking-up/meeting women...join the club. However, a great low-pressure way I've discovered to find new friends is groups that you can find via the free Meetup site. A bonus for the shy...if you don't want to take a risk in-person with someone you met, you can usually contact a member through their Meetup profile, so you can use email to gauge interest. In any case, it's all good social practice.
hahaha "stop touching my lego" love that metaphor sooooooooooooooooooooo genius !
@XY
I've been in a similar place and it's tough because it can feel like a recursive loop. I had no confidence with women because I wasn't able to meet them or start the relationship I desired and I couldn't do that because I had no confidence. I met a girl who gave me a chance, then broke my heart but after I got over her I realized that I could be desirable.
Until you have some self confidence and realize that you can be desirable you will not be. Try to expand your social circle and what is good about yourself. It's good for you regardless of what you want to do in life.
Some more advice for XY - go out and get involved in something. Volunteer groups are good. Not only do you do something useful, but you meet people too. Meeting new people is key, because eventually you will find someone whom you like that is also interested in you. You have to give yourself the most oppotunities to meet new people.
Also, don't forget about hookers. I would die if I went 5 months without sex, let alone 5 years. Hey, if you're dying from thirst, even a muddy pond will do in a pinch.
Try salsa dancing. It will get you learning an awesome skill while interacting with women in a positive way. Soon enough all of the benefits, like getting in shape, learning how to lead a woman and just have a great time will pay off.
Please tell me you didn't just say "learning how to lead a woman" like that's a good thing.
I am a fat guy who is confident (and dance really well) and I had 8s and 9s falling all over me.
XX,
Join groups. Neighborhood groups are full of 20 and 30 something ladies (at least in my super hip midwest one), community college classes (learn something for the same price as a hooker!), and my loneliness-fixer stand-by, volunteering. I walked shelter dogs (almost all women volunteers), I built homes with Habitat for Humanity (equal), served beer at festivals, and organized alumni events (also mostly women). It's easier to meet people if your interests go further than self-loathing.
man, you lot go on and on about confident but few or no one says anything on how to be confident or how to stop the self-loathing. i for one would like to join a club but i can't one that interests me.
It's hard to gain confidence when you are down. You need to develop some interests, especially ones that allow you to meet new people. Find things you are good at. Therapy is also an option.
When you are really down it can feel like nobody will ever give you a chance but they will just keep trying. If all else fails fake it. Yes women may see that you are faking it, but if you fake it long enough you may just find out that the confidence that you are faking has become a reality.
Good Luck. It can get better.
I am right now, in the same situation as XY. I have not had sex in 5 years, and it's caused all sorts of problems. Depression, anger,bitterness,anger at the world/women,etc. I was in this constant loop, it was always there, and I did whatever I could to take my mind off of it. Mostly when I was working,work,alcohol,and shopping. I have recently started taking meds,anti-depressants, and I feel alot differently and better in alot of ways. But there is still alot of unresolved issues,problems,and overall emptiness and feeling behind. I started taking this approach of just saying fuck it. What I mean is, I'm not working, I'm not in school, school and me has been a whole other story, let's just say that I'm not in it, wasn't in it before, and I'm not on that level,i.e in a real school,with the people/opportunities,all of that, no real social life/outlets,no sex in along time, and for the longest time, I used to get so angry at myself and beat myself up,and walk around and come home miserable, but after a bout of that this weekend, I decided to just say fuck it and why bother or try? Things aren't going to change anytime soon, I can't go back in time, I'm not going to be on that level, I'm not on my way to this ideal promising careet and success,and all of that, I never really prepared that much in the first place, spent all of this time daydreaming and saying oh if only and if only I was this person or that person or this and that etc, I'm more this loner type than not social/sociable type, but I could never relate or identify with or get the whole clique/pack/herd thing however you want to put it, and that's on alot of things, i.e I really don't give a flying fuck about apple products,shitty tv shows, or who got kicked off,or who is even on,american idol, I've never said or felt I was ugly,or physically unattractive, weight has been a problem for years, however,I've lost alot, 30 lbs, was 230,down to 200-199,and aiming for 190,if I'm not happy with that then, going to aim for 180-170, but yeah, like I said, no sex or relations in a long time. The only reason(s) I can come up with are a)lazyness,b)some shyness/confidence issues, c) anger/jealousy/bitterness issues, d) lack of opportunities, e) being spaced out and maybe not more aware, f) just the general shallowness of people, which I will say I have my shallow tendencies, yeah, I prefer big tits as to small tits, but I would never not date or be with someone cause of the size of there tits, but I do feel everyone else is shallow and is wrong for that etc. With all of this, comes the worries,anxieties and insecurities, feeling behind,inexperienced all of that. You then eventually you will meet someone who doesn't mind either way. But that's sort of throwing caution to the wind with something maybe you shouldn't. I mean, if someone isn't going to want to be with you cause of that, well I would have to automatically put her in the fucking bitch category. That's another thing, I don't think I could be with someone who's been with more people than me, more experienced, too judgemental on these sort of things,no single mothers either. No fucking way am I putting myself in the middle of something like that. It's also wanting love,romance,a relationship, marriage and family all of that, instead of just fucking everything that moves. I mean, I have those feelings, but not sure if that's what I want. And yes, I do at times judge those who do that. I don't care what you say, I can judge whoever and whenever, we all do it, just won't admit it. So yeah, I've got some hurdles to come over so to say. I guess now the plan is to go with a plan b.
Oh another thing, I was never really the "nice guy" type, so I can't really say that was/is the problem. Maybe once in high school,but different story. Also, try the online thing. I've had fair success with it. Nothing's come of it yet, but it's a nice option. That's actually how I first had sex. Yup. Managed to screw that one up cause I didn't keep my mouth shut. Oh no, it wasn't anything about her, it was about me. I let all the insecurities and shit take over and I would complain about them to her. Yup.
So yeah, that's what I've been doing, just saying fuck it, why be miserable about it all the time? I can't change things, It doesn't mean I don't have goals, or plans, or things I'm not good at or not interested in, it's just there's really nothing there for me now, but it's not like it was like that in the first place so much either. So yeah, why be miserable about it? I mean, it's the way of the world so to say, I don't like it alot of times, i.e the guy who plays guitar and is in a rock band has more sex appeal, which I do find to be incredibly shallow on the chick's half, but hey you asked. I guess that's it. Don't have too high expectations. Too many people do that, and then place those on others. Trust,repsect,fidelity,family etc just doesn't seem to be enough for them, and I'm not going to be at someone else's whim for petty shit or overall. That's another thing, when it comes to relations, you either give what I want, or you don't. If you don't, then I have no use for you. I'm not your dad,brother,best freind,shoulder to cry on, so don't come crying to me when things don't work out for you, i.e you've slept around with a bunch of assholes and oh, now you want things to be in your favor, now those "nice normal guys" seem like a viable option. You had the choice, you made it, not my fuckin problem. Seriously. There's alot of shit out there that's really not my fuckin problem, and I don't want to hear it.
Wow.... I just read your entire missive.
A few points:
If you want to masterbate into a woman's vagina - why don't you pay for it? If it is desire and intimacy and lust, you should just find a prostitute. She can give you tips, whatnot to improve your confidence and give you more experience in the bedroom.
But it sounds like you want more than that, you want a relationship but aren't willing to put in the time to hear the girl's issues? That sounds incredibly selfish. Best relationships are the ones where you're dating your best friend, so why you would actively shun that is beyond me.
Everyone has made mistakes in life and love, that's how we learn. Those who haven't, live sheltered and boring lives. You shouldn't hold someone's past against them if this is not who they are now. And easiest way to not let that stuff affect you, is to not ask.
You say that you think girls are shallow for being interested in the guy in the band. What does he have that you don't? Well... he has a musical skill (which regardless of whether you like their music, takes years to craft), is probably confident like fuck on stage and has passion. Confidence and skill mastery are very sexy traits. What is it that you can offer girls? You're not at work/school; you seem perpetually angry at the world, at women, and have decided that nothing's going to change so you're just going to say 'fuck it' and not bother with any of it anymore. Call me shallow, but I'd probably be going for the guy in the band too.
Take some of that advice given above, start focusing on yourself and how to improve yourself (ie the weight loss, learning a new skill, having some hobbies, volunteering for something) and you'll probably be a happier person, and then other things will fall into place.
Good luck.
"But it sounds like you want more than that, you want a relationship but aren't willing to put in the time to hear the girl's issues? That sounds incredibly selfish. Best relationships are the ones where you're dating your best friend, so why you would actively shun that is beyond me. "
No, that's not it. I don't want to be nice guy/freind zone/shoulder to cry on sucker guy. Yes, it might be a little selfish, but I got needs too, and you either give me what I want or you don't. I want it to be a two way street, but I want to be with someone who realizes that as well. I'm all for team work and negotiations, but at the same time, you gotta know when to say no. Do you agree? I guess I have a hard time seeing it as dating your best friend, cause I see it like that as being stuck in the freind zone. I guess it comes from being in positions where I am not in control of myself and can't say not, not through relationships, but from where I have worked, so I tend to have this no fuckin way am I putting up with that shit sort of reaction to some things. I could get more into it if you'd like.
"Everyone has made mistakes in life and love, that's how we learn. Those who haven't, live sheltered and boring lives. You shouldn't hold someone's past against them if this is not who they are now. And easiest way to not let that stuff affect you, is to not ask."
True, and I'm not saying I haven't, or I'm perfect, or that I'm casting the first stone, however, why should I be a sucker? Why should I lower my standards? And I'm not talking about shallow things like looks or money, no no, why should I be with someone who's basically been around and whathaveyou and wouldn't give me a second though cause I'm not whatever there unrealistic ideal is? Hmm? I mean, why settle for the party girl who's been with all the bad boys and is now older and wants kids and the normal guys seem like an option? Hmm? I'm not a control freak, I won't deal with control freaks, but I believe in my own self control.
"You say that you think girls are shallow for being interested in the guy in the band. What does he have that you don't? Well... he has a musical skill (which regardless of whether you like their music, takes years to craft), is probably confident like fuck on stage and has passion. Confidence and skill mastery are very sexy traits. What is it that you can offer girls? You're not at work/school; you seem perpetually angry at the world, at women, and have decided that nothing's going to change so you're just going to say 'fuck it' and not bother with any of it anymore. Call me shallow, but I'd probably be going for the guy in the band too."
Well that's the problem right there. I have many skills. But because you idealize this other person, I feel like I don't get a chance,and if you're not going to give me what I want, why should I do anything for you? I'm not going to be the doormat/nice guy/sucker. No way. I'm no different from any other guy, I got my needs too. Like I said, you either give me what I want or you don't. Oh wow. He has a musical skill. Guess that makes him a golden god right? All I can say is, don't pedestalize anyone. I don't. My skills? I'm funny, I cook, I'm creative, I'm handy with stuff,I'm smart. But apparently that's good enough for some, so fuck em. Again, why do something for you if you aren't going to do anything for me? It's a two way street. I would say more about this said fictional musician thing and other related stuff, but I've said enough. I'm not at work or school, but am in a job training program, but just cause I'm not, my needs don't deserve to be fullfilled? I should just forget that I feel like I've been passed over? Hmm? I am angry at things, but it's not like I walk around showing it. I'm a pretty chill person in real life, but the feeling is there. I'm not angry at women, just sick of there shit. That's all. I think chicks are allowed to get away with too much that we otherwise overlook, and yet do or would give guys shit for. Not falling for that. I never said I decided nothings going to change, I said why keep being upset and depressed over the things I can't, just say fuck it for a while, and not be depressed and miserable? can't go back and change some things,I',m not at this idealized succes level, now, so why be miserable over it? Maybe if I just say fuck it, I'll feel better about things and be more confident. Well, if you're shallow, not my problem,and I don't got to do anything for you or anyone I don't want to. This is what the world, sometimes chicks, does to guys. They realize what's going on, and they might not always get what they want, but they don't have to be or taken for suckers. Well, I've already lost alot of weight, I'm in this training program which will pay off in the end, I think I have plenty of skills, that's the thing, don't gimme this crap about oh, you want this guy who can make wine, and blow glass, and is this international traveler and all of that, don't want to fuckin hear it. Don't try to make me or hold me to something I'm not. You repeat this message over and over about women's body images and the media,which I actually agree with, but then you turn around and do the same thing to guys. Cut the shit ok. I'm not really one to volunteer. I want to work and get money. I'll maybe volunteer once I get that other part under control. I don't know if I'd be a happier person once things fall into place. I wouldn't necessarily be as miserable, but not happier. There's been this big void in regards to all of this, and I don't know if it will ever be filled or go away. Even when I had some of the successes I had, the feeling was still there. AnonymousDoofus beneath makes some great points in his posting. About how chicks have they're problems and such, but then turn around and want some guy with no problems and hold him to this higher standard. Cut the shit. Be more real as I say. I'm not saying lower your standards, which is told more to guys than it is to chicks if anything, but be more real about these things.
And another thing....
"Everyone has made mistakes in life and love, that's how we learn. Those who haven't, live sheltered and boring lives. You shouldn't hold someone's past against them if this is not who they are now. And easiest way to not let that stuff affect you, is to not ask."
Really? And I had to go here to make a point, well what if the guy you're dating is a rapist? Still not going to hold his past against him? What if someone is a drug addict, even a former one? I'm not getting involved in that sort of mess, same as single moms. I see what happens in situations like that, not doing that to myself. I like kids, want to have kids, not going to take care of someone's who aren't mean. I mean, if I'm walking a street, and someone's kid tries to run into the street, of course I'm going to do my damndest to stop the kid, but someone who is a single mom out to screw others and whathaveyou? Fuck no. It happens don't deny it. Or what about chicks who get pregnant just to entrap or screw the guy? Going to tell me that doesn't happen? I don't hate women, I'm just not going to pretend thatlike this stuff doesn't happen. Don't let it affect me? Well, easier said than done for alot of people. You say sheltered and boring like that's a bad thing. Kinda kidding kinda serious. But someone who is/was wild and out of control seems worse to me. Yeah, sometimes it is smart to hold those things against people and not get involved. I realize that can/does/could happen to me, but it's beyond my control if it does. But hey, like I said, don't have to do anything for anyone if I don't want too. And don't let it affect you? Well, what about when it's the chick who's sucked off and fucked every guy under the sun since she was whatever age, oh but she can't do you a favor? Think I'm going to stand for that and be taken for a sucker? No way. Maybe some have made too many mistakes in life and love, and they should have known better in many situations.
Man, you've got some huge issues and sounds like you do hate women, which they can probably feel, that's why they stay away.
I do have some issues, I don't hate women, and it's not like I go around saying this stuff in public. Why do you think I hate women? Cause I won't put up with there shit? Cause I'm not mr.rollover oh it's ok etc etc? Cause I actually take a stand? Hmm?
Well, maybe when and if you have had the issues I've had, you'd feel the same way.
Because you wrote certain things, but you know, lack of time etc.
This is a cool article talking about the sense of power and powerlessness men feel (written by a man). Maybe it will help.
https://www.michaelkaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/men_feminism.pdf
Dear Friend
In response:
In no particular order.
People’s Pasts.
We all have pasts, and that shapes us to be who we are presently. So if you meet someone that is fantastic and you click with them on every level, are you really going to break it off with her because you found out that she slept around a little when she was younger? Are you willing to sacrifice your present happiness because of her past, which is unchangeable and made her who she is today? That you can exercise self control is great, but not everyone is like you and some have to experience extremes before they learn self control.
Of course when I wrote that no one was perfect and we’ve all made mistakes, I wasn’t thinking of the full spectrum of possible pasts. So to answer your other scenarios described – the rapist. No I could not be with a rapist. Firstly rape is a crime which violates another person, and often relishes in that violation. It is violence unto a woman and anyone who has done this probably has extreme misogyny and an array of issues with himself and women. I want no part of that, and most likely, said rapist and I wouldn’t be running in the same social circles.
Former drug addict: yes I could probably still be with them, provided they were clean now.
There is a HUGE spectrum of what wild/past mistakes can be, and it doesn’t automatically mean sleeping with 500 people. Your tone when you talk about a “chick who’s sucked off and fucked every guy under the sun since she was whatever age” is condescending and judgmental. And you wonder why she won’t do you that “favor”. (And are we talking a sexual favor? Because I wouldn’t give a sexual favor to someone who on the one hand holds it against me and judges me by it, but then expects me to give it to him either.) Not saying you have to accept her lifestyle choices, but if you don’t, then don’t socialize with her.
Skills/Musicians/Groupies
That’s great that you have many skills. Show them off! Invite friends around for dinner, make stuff, make people laugh. Make yourself someone that people want to be around because of your smart wit and your awesome food. And why chase girls who are into musicians? Most girls of the world are not chasing musicians. Yes, it’s an idealized fantasy like the fireman or the Summer fling, but most people are not so shallow as to give up a good guy for the chance to fuck a musician. And if they are, then you wouldn’t want to be with them anyway. In that respect, you haven’t been “passed over” you’ve been saved the trouble.
Regarding your anger/annoyance over the fact that girls can get away with things that guys can’t. I agree with you there. A lot of girls want empowerment, equal everything but also expect a guy to open doors and pay the check. In fact, I’d want it too, because wouldn’t it be nice to have your cake and eat it too? But I am aware of this and actively try to steer myself away from it. I don’t like splitting bills on dates but I treat my partner next time; guys are expected to be romantic but few girls are, so I try to every now and then show small acts of romance. If I can do it, then other girls are doing it too. Call a girl out on it if you find this is what she’s doing, but don’t use it as an excuse for meanness.
All over your writing, you say you’re not going to do this or that unless women give you what you want. Well what exactly do you want? A sign of genuine friendship (and love) is doing things for others without expecting something back. Besides, if you won’t do anything for anyone without expecting something in return, how do people see your (emotional) generosity and your worth as a friend? Of course, you need to be mindful of people taking advantage of that, but in the long run, you will vastly benefit. (Example: I am taking time to respond to your post. There is nothing really in it for me, and I certainly don’t expect anything out of it, but I would like to think that by taking some time to write you, maybe you’ll feel better about things, and even if you disagree with what I say, you’ll have thought about it and hopefully it gives you another perspective.)
In terms of activities, hobbies whatnot. I am not recommending you learn new things to attract yourself to women, I am saying you learn/do things for yourself and do what you enjoy. When you enjoy doing something, you start to have a passion for it, and THAT is an attractive quality. Plus doing things lets you meet people with similar interests and who knows where that leads.
Finally, in defense of my recommending you volunteer. I figured that you may not have a lot of money to spend on therapy, doing activities, expensive gyms and whatnot, so here’s a free activity that gets you out meeting new people, helping the community, makes you realize how much you have compared to some, and it makes you feel good about yourself. Plus you’ll be meeting other volunteers and I bet the girls there aren’t all about banging a musician.
"We all have pasts, and that shapes us to be who we are presently. So if you meet someone that is fantastic and you click with them on every level, are you really going to break it off with her because you found out that she slept around a little when she was younger? Are you willing to sacrifice your present happiness because of her past, which is unchangeable and made her who she is today? That you can exercise self control is great, but not everyone is like you and some have to experience extremes before they learn self control." Well, whether I could be with her or not would depend on alot. Is this a defensiveness thing? Perhaps, but it's mine to deal with.
"Of course when I wrote that no one was perfect and we’ve all made mistakes, I wasn’t thinking of the full spectrum of possible pasts. So to answer your other scenarios described – the rapist. No I could not be with a rapist. Firstly rape is a crime which violates another person, and often relishes in that violation. It is violence unto a woman and anyone who has done this probably has extreme misogyny and an array of issues with himself and women. I want no part of that, and most likely, said rapist and I wouldn’t be running in the same social circles. " Well, I don't want that to come off the wrong way in any way, I think such a thing is terrible and all the things you said,mysogonist etc, but I used that as an example that to show that any and everyone can/does/will possibly hold something against someone for whatever reason. So like I said, for me, it could/would depend on alot. I've acutally been corresponding with someone online, and after a discussion with her and some things she told, I'm having some second thoughts. I will tell you if you'd like to know. I won't give out names, I wouldn't do that, but if you want to know.
"Former drug addict: yes I could probably still be with them, provided they were clean now. " Nope. Couldn't/wouldn't do it, even if clean now, no way. Too risky for me personally. I'm not talking about having smoked a little weed once, or even now and is a pothead, that wouldn't bother me. I'm talking an all out fiend and addict who did/does it all and did whatever or whoever they could to get it. No way.
"There is a HUGE spectrum of what wild/past mistakes can be, and it doesn’t automatically mean sleeping with 500 people. Your tone when you talk about a “chick who’s sucked off and fucked every guy under the sun since she was whatever age” is condescending and judgmental. And you wonder why she won’t do you that “favor”. (And are we talking a sexual favor? Because I wouldn’t give a sexual favor to someone who on the one hand holds it against me and judges me by it, but then expects me to give it to him either.) Not saying you have to accept her lifestyle choices, but if you don’t, then don’t socialize with her. "
Oh, I would never be condescending or judgemental like that in real life, I'm not that stupid. If I didn't want anything to do with someone, I wouldn't. However, the reality is, whether you want to accept this or not, is guys can do and will judge a girl on those sort of things. I mean, if you were the high school slut so to say who slept around with guys for whatever reason(s), guys are,can and will judge on you that, anyone who doesn't is lying or just using you, and if so, not my problem. Guys do expect sexual favors, that's reality, and you either give what he wants or you don't. I would never, or even joke about, making someone do something they don't want to do, but I got my needs too, just saying. Well, like I said, if I don't want anything to do with them, then I won't, but, that frustration is still there. But we do live in a day and age where girls do, and are often encouraged, to sleep around with and have as many flings with as many guys as they want, and that has changed things drastically, not even necessarily for the better either. Argue and deny this all you want, it does/has/is happening. I mean, kids as young as 12? It happens, and we know who does it and why and all of that.
"Skills/Musicians/Groupies
That’s great that you have many skills. Show them off! Invite friends around for dinner, make stuff, make people laugh. Make yourself someone that people want to be around because of your smart wit and your awesome food. And why chase girls who are into musicians? Most girls of the world are not chasing musicians. Yes, it’s an idealized fantasy like the fireman or the Summer fling, but most people are not so shallow as to give up a good guy for the chance to fuck a musician. And if they are, then you wouldn’t want to be with them anyway. In that respect, you haven’t been “passed over” you’ve been saved the trouble."
I used the musician thing as an example. I wouldn't chase after somebody who is like that, but that frustration is still there. That frustration that she would pick or be attracted to someone else over me cause of these shallow stupid reasons. All guys feel this way and are like this. It's wanting to be that guy, but being angry at yourself for not and being angry at those who are. It's just been my reaction to these sort of things. I do all that stuff. I cook, I make people laugh, I make things,etc, but yet here I am. Idk if it's been a lack of resources and opportunities, or I've been in the wrong place my whole life or something.
"Yes, it’s an idealized fantasy like the fireman or the Summer fling, but most people are not so shallow as to give up a good guy for the chance to fuck a musician. And if they are, then you wouldn’t want to be with them anyway. In that respect, you haven’t been “passed over” you’ve been saved the trouble." That's what angers me at times, that that's even there. I wouldn't want to be with someone who is shallow like that, but it frustrates me that they are shallow. It's the same as the jock, or the buisnessmen, or the douche,etc. Girls, esp hot ones, seem to always go for guys like this, and it's always frustrating and angry for the rest of us. I'm not saying guys don't do that either, but from my view, it's been frustrating for me. But it feels like I have been passed over, it's always been that way, not just for me, for everyone. I mean, I want to be that person on top with the power so to say.
"But I am aware of this and actively try to steer myself away from it. I don’t like splitting bills on dates but I treat my partner next time; guys are expected to be romantic but few girls are, so I try to every now and then show small acts of romance. If I can do it, then other girls are doing it too. Call a girl out on it if you find this is what she’s doing, but don’t use it as an excuse for meanness. "
Ah but see, this is the trap. Guys try to do all that stuff, be romantic etc, and then we end up getting used and/or walked all over. Only to suckers though. Or the guy does all that, it turns the girl away, all this stuff we were told to do and is supposed to work doesn't, so where does that leave us? Exactly. I won't have to call her out on it cause I'm not going to put myself in that position in the first place.
"All over your writing, you say you’re not going to do this or that unless women give you what you want. Well what exactly do you want? A sign of genuine friendship (and love) is doing things for others without expecting something back. "
That is what I want, and I want it in return. However, that's not how things are set up nowadays. No one dates, falls in love, plans to get married and have a family anymore. Oh no. It's all hook ups and casual flings and all that other stuff is put off till later, so those of us who have a different view either need to find another option or adapt to what's there in someways. I want a trusting,faithful,respectful loving relationship with someone who isn't going to try and take advantage and the like. I don't want to use anybody, but I don't to put myself in a position where I'm being taken advantage or I didn't get what I signed up for or anything like that.
" Besides, if you won’t do anything for anyone without expecting something in return, how do people see your (emotional) generosity and your worth as a friend? Of course, you need to be mindful of people taking advantage of that, but in the long run, you will vastly benefit"
I do and have done plenty for others w/o expecting anything in return. I can be and am a rather generous person when I want to be. But like you said, you need to be careful when doing that so as to not taken advantage of, and I've made sure of that. I had to learn the hard way with that one a few times before. But still, girls don't like guys like that until there older and that's what they want, but for the time being, they still like the selfish ones who aren't like that, which is fine, cause it's not my problem and tells me what I need to do sometimes. I am in control of myself, and I decide what and when I will do.
" (Example: I am taking time to respond to your post. There is nothing really in it for me, and I certainly don’t expect anything out of it, but I would like to think that by taking some time to write you, maybe you’ll feel better about things, and even if you disagree with what I say, you’ll have thought about it and hopefully it gives you another perspective.)"
I do appreciate you responding, and I don't mean to come off as angry towards you in any way, and I do agree with alot of what you say, however there are some things I see differently on and some I can't deny or overlook either. Only because I'm not going to lie to myself.
"In terms of activities, hobbies whatnot. I am not recommending you learn new things to attract yourself to women, I am saying you learn/do things for yourself and do what you enjoy. When you enjoy doing something, you start to have a passion for it, and THAT is an attractive quality. Plus doing things lets you meet people with similar interests and who knows where that leads."
I already have those things. I have my hobbies and passions. I'm in a job training program for something that will do that for me. It feels I have been given an opportunity I didn't get before for many reasons, I can explain if you'd like, and hopefully it will lead to what I want. Let's just say alot of this has been isolation. That's as best I can put it for now.
"Finally, in defense of my recommending you volunteer. I figured that you may not have a lot of money to spend on therapy,"
Actually, I'm on unenployment, get some money out of that, not alot but enough, and I am in therapy and have been taking meds which have helped, but there's still alot bothering me. Therpay has been helping, but there's still some stuff we haven't quite gotten into yet. I work out, so that's helped. The meeting new people part has been a problem at times for some reasons. It's a mix I'll tell you that. I was going to say something about the last part about girls and musicians, but why repeat myself?
Cait, I get your advice about trying to make oneself happy/confident in such a way that you project that out to the world and become attractive to women as a result. But what if your problem isn't so much that you have low self-esteem but more that you happen to be going through a tough couple of years in your life? What does one do then (esp. if, like me, you're on the older side -43)?
I've read lots of advice that suggests that I should join clubs/volunteer, but as a divorced dad who takes care of his kids 3-4 nights a week, works full time, and goes to grad school part time, I barely have any time for a social life (at least not when school is in session) and my finances are stretched mighty thin. It's hard to project happiness or calm contentment when you're just barely scraping by, trying to run a household on half what you used to. What does one do then? Aside from one woman I went out with for a month last year, I haven't had a girlfriend since my marriage broke up, and haven't had sex in almost three years. I'm beginning to wonder if I ever will again.
I understand that one shouldn't go into a relationship with the idea that someone ia going to fix you, but aren't people who have their shit completely together and are perfectly content with their lives more the exception than the rule? Aren't most people not completely psyched with their jobs? Aren't most people dealing with unresolved (to one extent or another) issues their entire life? Wouldn't some woman who has problems of her own be willing to consider going out with a guy who's got some problems?
I've got to say Cait, that your advice here is bad, verging on cruel. Be more self reliant? Really? Are you a cliché machine? Tell someone whose problems is low self-esteem to get more self-esteem is like saying, your problem is you haven't solved your problem.
I've done all the things people suggest. I've been to the gym, and I look great. I have decent clothes. I'm halfway to a PhD. I have friends, I belong to clubs. I went to therapy for a year, and did all the homework, all the watching for negative self-talk and correcting it, took my prozac. and it did nothing, because confidence isn't something you can manufacture. I still can't get women if I walk around with a hundred dollar bill hanging out my fly. all my friends promise to set me up, and it never happens, and I get nothing off dating sites, and forget about women IRL.
every night when I go to bed, I pray I don't wake up.
so please don't tell people to just be more self reliant.
"I still can't get women if I walk around with a hundred dollar bill hanging out my fly." You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what women want, buddy.
Anyway, have you tried seeing a therapist? I mean that kindly. Student health insurance will usually cover at least 12 sessions/semester.
"I went to therapy for a year"
Seems that way.
I agree about the writing style being a little hard to read, but I'm not saying it to be hurtful. Just adding another opinion to the pot.
What I want to disagree about is the fact that fixing oneself guarantees a date when we all know plenty fucked up people with assortment of tail and companionship from which to choose. It is a piece of advice I'm pretty tired of hearing. Another suggestion that's off is the fact that a person can't be fixed by another. Know it alls, cry if you want, but many of us are at our best when someone is actually interested in us. Not the other way around.
I agree that keeping busy is a good thing, but persistence is what will work in the long run. Not being Mr. Perfect Jetsetting Adventurous Adonis of a high IQ. People who expect you to be that aren't worth your time anyway.
Are you always looking for the perfect woman? IQ of 150, built like (insert fave famous women's name here), and a high wage earner that can beat you in any sport...have I got the girl for you! Kidding, she does not exist.
Seriously go after women in your socio/economic/looks bracket, you will not have to wait another 5 years.
I had similiar problems, always chasing the best looking girl in the bar, when I was absolutely no the best looking guy in the bar. A recipe for failure. I dropped my physical standards, ended up dating and marrying a women, that my evil twin would have thought...err wait a minute, she is a bit plump, move along, nothing to see hear. We have been together for almost 15 years now, and I am happier than I ever was when I was with those size 2 bimbos, mind you it is nice to see every guy drooling over your girl, ans you walk down the street arm in arm, is it not?
Think about, lower your standards, I know you do not want to because ...why? You are to good for that? Do you look like Brad Pitt, do you have Bill Gates money, do you have Steven Hawkin's brain. No, no, no ower your standards brother, you will be so much happier. If all you want to do is fuck the hottest chicks around, go to a pro. Then, you can say..'yeah, I've slept with hot chicks...been there done that...now I want a real woman!'
I forgot one more crucial thing, a few years ago a girl asked me what kind of women I am attracted to...oh I like women with long curly bonde hair, long legs, lush lips...
Surprise! Every man in the world would like this kind of woman
I said to her "I like the type of women that like me" I had to explain to her, that if you have to spend a lot of time wooing a woman that is not that interested in you, you may be able to catch her, but you will find that over time, she is far more trouble than she is worth
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