Dateline: "I regret my decision to let him pick me up."

I never pay for the first date as a rule. I'll split the cost if she asks or if I don't feel like seeing her again but if I like the girl I leave it up to her to show me she likes me enough to pick up the check. It's not about being cheap (I'm not) its about being selective; I'll suggest a second date which will be my treat before the issue of paying comes up if I like her and if she assumes that today is my treat as well then she's selfish and not good enough for me. You might recognize this as a variation on the "locked-door test" from A Bronx Tale.

Agree with Stephanie. Honestly, if someone had asked me out on a date and then, like Dylan, didn't offer to pay, I would assume that my date was no longer interested in me and/or is cheap. Either way, I would likely be upset (especially if I hadn't picked the date and known how expensive it would be) and I almost assuredly wouldn't go on a second date.

I think it's a shame to turn the whole who-pays-for-the-date into a game of who-cares-enough-about-whom. If you invited someone out, then pay for them. If you're broke, split the bill. The polite thing to do is usually obvious from the situation, and it should be about just that - common courtesy - and not about some kind of demonstration of power over the person you're dating, where their payment is somehow supposed to reflect their degree of affection for you.

Men have to do almost all the asking. So saying "asker pays" it's a just sexist euphemism for saying "men should always pay".

Agreed. Women can help fix this societal problem by putting their feet down and letting men know that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. Otherwise, they'll do exactly the same thing on the next date. Be clear!

Underlining a time-honored tactic of us menfolk to make sure potential mates feel stranded and trapped, and therefore dependent on us and our grandmothers' financial largess.

Or, well, something like that.

"He was driving and he was weird, do you think she had much choice? "

Yes. Yes, I do. Are you kidding? They were at the zoo, not on walkabout through the Australian desert. Are you really telling me that because this bozo gave her a ride and she accepted, that she is now just trying to find a way to negotiate with a terrorist until she's safely back home? Call a taxi. Catch a bus. Text a friend to come and pick you up. There are a myriad of ways to negotiate your person through three dimensional space once you're an adult with a credit card, a phone, and some common sense. Or, I guess, get pawed up by some random because you "don't know what this person can do".

Fucking take some agency in your life. This guy wasn't threatening her, he was going on a date he thought was working out better than it was. I see no reason to assume violence that isn't there. If she had said, "Dude, I'm not into the kissing, let's head back" and he responded with creepiness, sure, then you escalate your response as appropriate. But this looks like the behaviour of a teenaged kid who shouldn't be allowed out on her own. I'm not going to be blaming some dude for this chick's bad choices and inability to adult up.

Given that Jess talks elsewhere in this thread about personal experience with dating men, I'm guessing that's unlikely. Nice ad hominem attack, though, very classy.

Eh, the guy's a complete douche, and I'd say it's a safe bet he'd be controlling (if not abusive) in a relationship. But saying "we know" he's a rapist seems kinda-sorta insufferably smug to me. Plenty of guys are brutish morons (and overly-forceful kissers) without actually being rapists. We can acknowledge the red flags without patting ourselves on the back for it.

@KH, I think it's pretty clear that you meant to imply that the guy was probably a rapist -- what else could "physically imposes himself on women" mean? Why else would you say that Jaime is being "too nice" when s/he says the guy "could get violent"? -- and pretty disingenuous to claim you didn't. I'm not defending the guy; I'm attacking your smug tone, which rubbed me the wrong way.

Actually, I think it's kinda slimy of you to claim I was "defending" the guy. I said he'd probably be controlling and very possibly abusive in a relationship; said that there were red flags; and called him a brutish moron by implication. Hell, I think there's a pretty decent shot that the guy could be rapey, and I think women should avoid him like the plague. I just think there's something gross about saying "we know" and "we don't have to guess", especially because there are a fuckload of rapists out there who are utterly charming and suave until they strike. It's just self-satisfied in a way that makes my skin crawl almost as much as the guy described in this story.

Just because you happen to be saying something bad about a guy who's a douchebag doesn't mean that people who call you out for seeming smug or self-satisfied are "defending" him. It's very George W. Bush of you -- smearing someone who criticizes you as being allied with the enemy -- and it's a perfect example of what the world needs less of.

Jess -- there is a lot of questionable stuff in your posts. The writer explicitly states that she didn't feel comfortable refusing him. If you put someone in a situation where someone feel unsafe if they say no to you, you do not have their consent. I am not saying "this guy is definitely a rapist" or "she couldn't have done anything to make herself safer" (what she could have/should have done is have a separate ride set up for herself, and as I was reading this I internally called her dumb for not arranging her own separate ride -- but how fucked up is that expectation, that women should arrange dates to be able to make an escape at any moment in case their date is a rapist? ugh), but she is not at all at fault for doing what she needed to do to feel safe and leave the situation in a way that didn't put herself in danger. Also, while a verbal "no" is always ideal, if someone is completely not reciprocating your advances, most people would at least ask if something was wrong. This guy paid it no mind at all. That's not even a red flag -- it's a siren. The writer was 1. put in a situation where she did not feel entirely safe, and 2. gave him no reciprocation, and 3. he did not even check in with her? Defending that is, frankly, disturbing. There is no indication that he is a rapist or an abuser -- but that is certainly the mentality of one.

"Actually, she DOESN'T explicitly say that she didn't feel uncomfortable refusing" -- she says that the reason she's not refusing is because she doesn't have a ride, not because she wants to make out with him. Yes, I am kind of reading between the lines here, but to me saying "He makes out with me; I try to avoid pissing him off while deflecting talk of another date," means she was uncomfortable expressing how she was actually feeling.

I mean, maybe the guy was hot, maybe not. But she doesn't say "I said nothing about this because I wanted to bang him;" she says "I said nothing about this because I was concerned about getting home." Sorry, but if you are reading any enthusiasm on her part in terms of continuing the date I think you are projecting. As of right after the first kiss she states that she is deflecting talk of another date; I don't think she is looking to fuck him.

I am sorry, but that "welcome to life" thing is not really a good enough answer to the issue that women are expected to treat every man like a potential rapist, and if they don't other people will think that they are idiots. I found myself thinking a woman was dumb for not having an escape plan for what was supposed to be a casual date. Really? That's trauma victim type stuff there; a seriously fucked up way of thinking. And it's not about defending yourself against sociopaths or actually insane people; if it were, it would be a much more manageable issue. It's about protecting yourself against totally sane people who just don't give a shit. I don't think the guy in the above story was crazy. I think he was just a guy who did not have a lot of respect for a woman's boundaries or a lot of interest in her level of enthusiasm. That shit happens all the time, and it doesn't make everyone a sociopath, it just means we exist in a world where some people are privileged to not really have to consider the thoughts and feelings of others. But yes, that is a much more involved debate than this date. As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line is, she did what she needed to do to feel safe. And this jump to assume that she wanted it because she didn't give an explicit, verbal "no", and because he was probably hot or something, is some fucked up shit.

Question the "stuff" in my posts as you like, 'nope'. I do not like this stance you're taking where a woman coming up with her own ride for a date is considered some sort of horrible permutation of rape culture that is unacceptable, yet the fact that this woman--in your mind, at least--felt she had to go along with a kiss in order to get a ride home is totally normal behaviour.

I don't agree with either stance, actually. I have ridden in cars with people I didn't know very well. Quite a few times in my life, in fact, and lived to tell the tale. The fact that I always have a way out is not due to a fear of rape or an over-sensitivity to the dangers of the "real world", but just an adult common sense plan. Whether I have ridden to a date with a guy I later find makes me uncomfortable or I go out clubbing with some friends and the DD starts drinking or I'm car-pooling with a stranger to a work conference who gets a flat tire, being able to come up with Plan Bs when my first ride falls through is just Being An Adult.

So if you want to say that this chick was genuinely uncomfortable and afraid of violence from this guy--and again, I'm not reading that AT ALL in her words--then it doesn't make sense that she should be coming up with ways to placate him just so she can get a ride back into town. Either 1. He is a safe enough dude to ride back with, in which case she should be more than free to tell him she doesn't want to make out or 2. He is an unsafe dude to tell she doesn't want to make out with, in which case, she needs to call a taxi.

For the record, I think the commenters are reading waaaaay too much possible-violence into this guy's behaviour, based on what the chick writes. She doesn't say he was "looming over her" or "touching her aggressively" or "making her fearful" or anything similar. He was forward and enthusiastic about his interest. Since she didn't tell him not to be, I'm not going to be judging that. You think this guy should be able to read her lack of reciprocation as lack of interest, rather than just a placid kissing style; I say that if she doesn't want to be kissed, she needs to pull away or state her feelings outright. I believe that women are--or should be--the positive forces in their own lives. If she HAD been very attracted to him, she would have been bothered that he didn't make a move, no? So without clear communication of interest, how else do we judge the interest of our dates without making moves?

I'm just saying, as an adult, I can both tell a guy that I'm not interested and get myself home when I need to. I don't think that that makes me particularly note-worthy. You know what bugs me about your comments, 'nope'? It's the fact that you want to both say that it's bullshit that women have to think up Plan Bs for when they get into uncomfortable situations, but also that women don't need to make their feelings clear. You're pretending that you think women should be safe everywhere they go, but not giving them any agency for themselves to make their way in the world. NO ONE is safe everywhere they go! NO ONE gets to never be made uncomfortable! I'm not saying women should have to take up martial arts and carry a weapon--I'm saying that ALL ADULTS should, as a bare minimum, be able to say 'no' to someone in a public place and get themselves a taxi when they need it.

This chick outright said that she was "debating" whether or not it was worth spending $40 on a taxi. Are you really telling me that this is a case where she was genuinely fearful for her safety, rather than just mildly uncomfortable to be out with a guy she didn't fancy? Because, speaking for myself, I would have been willing to pay AT LEAST $50 to avoid a rape that seemed imminent.

love that you stuck up for yourself. a story i submitted got similarly skewered with people drawing all kinds of insane conclusions about me and what each line said about my values. it's hard to distill all the complexity of a dating/sexual experience into a one page article. But for many people it's fun to read and insult the author. So I feel for you.

She made a good decision to bail out of an awkwardly long ride home (with multiple points of risk along the way) and get dropped off to meet a friend nearby who was expecting her. Give some credit where due, she created a safe exit. Should she have bailed earlier? Probably, but hindsight and all that.

Loneliness can render one stupid. Granted the author never said she was lonely, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Being horny can also render one stupid. :-)