Ms. Elizabeth Wurtzel, I declare to you that I, Jack Harrison, though I have lived all my decades a bachelor in full gallivant, not only want to trade it all in and get married, but actually will — if I can convince my girlfriend to stop living with another man. But you're opposed to marriage, right? What gives?
I'm not utterly against marriage — I don't boycott weddings and I'm really happy when I see people marry under the right circumstances for the right reasons — but how often is that? Hence the 60% divorce rate — 75% for second marriages.
Sure, but people have sex badly too — at a rate much higher than 75%, I'd imagine — but I'm still in favor of sex. It seems to me that there are four great things about getting married:
One, the ability to say to someone, I want to marry you (how fabulously romantic is that?).
Two, the wedding, being able to gather all the people you love in one place and have them tell you how they feel through toasts (which I love).
Three, being able to put weight on the symbolic commitment you made to each other, to feel more trusting and safe than you might if all you shared was a rent payment and Rover's vet bills.
And four, something of a corollary to three, it makes it harder to get out of, so even if you're weak or afraid or having a bad time, you have to try to make it work. People can be very, very bad at relationships, and maybe marriage can help make us a little better than we'd be otherwise.
I agree that I'd really like to have a wedding, because those dresses — not the ones that are like meringue, but the really wonderful and subtle ones — are just fantastic. Who doesn't want to be princess for a day? And I'm with you on the whole toasting thing too. For once, it would be nice to hear the good things people have to say about me rather than find out what I've done wrong on Gawker. Toasting is a unique ritual. At the same time, so are eulogies, which isn't a good reason to drop dead prematurely.
I think there should be some substitute for The Wedding, for those of us who can't bear to go through with it but would really like some good china. My ex-boyfriend and I have occasionally thought of getting married just to split the loot. I think I'm saying that marriage has nothing to do with love.
But say you actually do love someone. Isn't it great that you can show them by proposing? I want the commitment. I want to know I'm in for the long haul. Less ambiguity, more effort — like tenure for professors. (Except for the effort part.) You can only be fired if you sleep with your students — just like marriage! I want longevity in relationships.
Want to know when I realized I shouldn't get married? Years ago, I started to have this recurrent anxiety dream. In it, I was engaged to some man — different in every dream — and we would go ring shopping together. So we'd be in some great jewelry store, and I would notice beautiful earrings and fabulous necklaces and fantastic bracelets, but we only had enough money to buy a pair of wedding rings. I would feel so down, because I wanted to get other things. And then finally the guy would say to me, "You know, we don't have to get married." And it would be such a relief. I had this dream all the time when I was twenty-two. I still thought I wanted to get married at some point, but it was clear that something was bothering me.
So what's your beef, exactly?
Marriage seems to be the death of heat. It's the beginning of domesticity, which is a nice thing, for sure, but it's the end of hotness. I think there's something about getting all the paperwork done — making it legal — that just kills the fire. Believe me, I should know: law is one big damp blanket. I'm all for long-term relationships, but I think you need to earn your keep every day. There's always got to be a door ajar. I'm not saying it ought to be so Hooksexup-wracking that you spend every minute of every day wondering, "Will he leave?" But the tension should always be there.
Ah, yes. Losing the heat. I've heard that can be a problem. But is that an inherent element of marriage, or just the fact that a lot of people try less hard because they "have tenure"? I think marriage should make us work harder, not less hard. I think part of the problem is that people in marriages accept too much of the bad (or just gripe about it without really trying to work it through), instead of realizing, like Groundhog Day, that there's a lot of time to spend trying to get it right, and they might as well work at it.
You mean what appears to be repetitive motion is actually working toward perfection? Marriage is not a rehearsal for winning a figure-skating medal in the Olympics, Jack. Doing the same thing over and over again is a failure of imagination, not a better version of a double-toe axel.
Not to bring up sex again, but. . . No, there will always be repetitive days, but you can use them as occasions to try to get closer, communicate better, understand each other better, and give each other more physical pleasure. That makes things less monotonous.
That's where we differ. You're a much more tolerant person than I am. After all, you don't mind combining cunnilingus with flossing, which means you'll pretty much put up with anything. Maybe I don't want to get quite that close.
Well, I'm still not wearing a ring either, so who knows if I could practice what I preach. So you think that anyone would get annoying after a while, and you should be able to jump ship when you get to that point?
I think anyone would get annoying if you were stuck. Meanwhile, you have one of the single most crazy arrangements I know of, and you're elevating matrimony. That is insane. You're like Ronald MacDonald telling the world to be vegan.
Well, I never said I was above hypocrisy. But one thing being in an open relationship has taught me is that you can work through more than you'd think. I used to see smoke on the horizon and I'd flee; now I'm learning how much can be talked about, how much people can work together. Ironically, being in an open relationship, or at least being in this one, has renewed my faith that I could be with only one woman for the rest of my life.
Every time I'm with one man, it renews my faith that I can be with one person forever — and all my friends tell me he will soon bore me. But I really do think I could be with one person forever, so long as we didn't get married, because I just can't give into convention so completely. It's symbolic, but symbols matter. When people are in a relationship where one person wants to marry and the other doesn't, but the situation is otherwise fine — in other words, where the problem is only symbolic — that symbol can take on huge meaning. I come from divorced parents, and I suppose I just want to get the symbol out of the way from the get-go. I don't even want it to be an issue. I hate when people ask, "Is this relationship going somewhere?" I just want to cut that whole issue out. It's caused a lot more pain than pleasure, quite honestly.
That's a good point. It would be nice if marriage weren't expected and you could just spring a proposal on someone, like airplane tickets or a present for the thousandth day you'd been together. The Valentine's Day expectation crap is annoying, but even so, I'd be more afraid of the possible symbolic message of saying, "I'm against marriage; let's never consider it." Wouldn't most people take that personally?
There's that great moment in Four Weddings and a Funeral, which is a great movie, actually, when Hugh Grant asks Andie MacDowell not to marry him for the rest of his life. That sounds right.
Yeah, it's a good trick, but I'd rather ask someone to marry me at least once — and repeatedly if necessary. Plus, don't you want to wear a ring so dirtbags stop hitting on you all the time?
Funny thing is, my dad gave me this great diamond and ruby ring when I was young, and he said it was in case I fell in love with someone poor who couldn't buy me an engagement ring. It's turned out to be more useful than I thought, though I wear it on my middle finger, not my ring finger.
Oh, that's very sweet. I think that's what I'm going to end up doing with the ring I had thrown back at me. So what would you do if you were really in love and the guy really wanted to get married?
Do I get to wear a fabulous dress?
Well, if it was with me, not for long. . .
Okay, but for the party part. . . Also, no pre-nup. I mean, if we're going to be idiots, we go for broke.
Now that I don't endorse! You've sold six billion more books than I have. Sure, I'd be the one to benefit, but... keep your money, darling. I'd like being your boy toy.
Deal!
Commentarium (31 Comments)
Hah! Marriage wins!
For many people, one of the only public traditions left is marriage and it's obvious the appeal to have the whole wedding bit. Especially in a culture that tells us we deserve nothing but the best, we are all unique and should publicly express our individuality (preferably with lots of money), ideally while we are young and beautiful. I have a problem with this - it creates a 'have' and 'have nots' culture where if you're with someone forever people believe you've achieved something, whereas if you aren't, you've achieved nothing of 'real' importance. In turn, this creates sometimes subtle, sometimes not, undue cultural/social pressure on people to go through with something huge sometimes before they are ready, or with the wrong person, or have financial means to and so on. It's easy to get caught up in the dream and ignore the reality and years later, a vast number of people realize...oh shit. Sure, you can be happily married or happily un-married - i've seen examples of both. But marriage as an institution is not going to be a fail proof guarantee of your forever happiness, only time will tell whether two people are good together, married or not. So why bother? I can see the pluses of being with someone long term, married or otherwise. But marriage comes with an awful lot of extra minuses, in my eyes.
Instead of a wedding, perhaps i'll just have a massive party with a huge 'I'M SPECIAL' banner. To come to my party, it will be expected for people to buy me nice gifts, or give me cash, for being an awesome me. I'll blog and twitter about it and put an ad in the paper notifying people of my specialness. People will make speeches about how much they love me while i sit high up in a chair in a gorgeous gown and everyone will listen. Every 10 years or so i'll have a parties celebrating the 'I'm Special' party and have a nice scrapbook filled with pictures of me just being me and doing fun stuff. Oh wait..i guess people might find this ridiculous and obnoxious, though. It'll be cool though, i'll just bring someone else along for the ride.
It is pretty clear each of the speakers confused the question "of whether marriage strengthens or weakens relationships?" with a question about how they fell about pepole they have dated. From an attempt to answer an objective question to the citation of one's own subjective experience in a single bound. Actually it reveals alot. If one is this unable to shed their own skin and adopt an outside perspective it is no wonder they are both sitting on heaps of failed relationships. I guess no one that works at Hooksexup is actually married so they couldn't bring in anyone who know what they are talking about.
As someone who has been married for twenty years to a woman I met in college, I find these debates about whether marriage is good or bad to be tedious and unproductive. Marriages, like all other relationships, are as varied as the people who marry, subject to all the problems that mark any relationship. They are as good or bad as the couple make it and each marriage succeeds or fail on its own terms. It is simply not useful to talk about marriage as a monolithic construct that has either succeeded or failed regardless of the experience of the unique circumstances of each married couple. Citing divorce statistics does not make the case that marriage has failed. Why do all marriages have to succeed? We do not demand that of any other relationship. Marriage is a public statement of a couple's open-ended commitment to one another. The fact that you hope the commitment will last forever does not mean that it will. And marriage as a whole is not a failure because many marriages do not last. Many marriage do last and not just because the couples feel obligated to stay together. They last because the people love each other and make the relationship work.
Hey NN, what are your thoughts on marriage? Don't just be the boring pissy internet commentor, make an actual point. I'd be flabbergasted!
I think Marriage is an institution best suited for educated people who wait until their late twenties or early thirties to tie the knot. All the statistics on marriage show that the 50% failure rate is largely being beefed up by the scores of young and uneducated people who tie the knot. I also think that marriage is an institution that demands certain behavior from those involved. It is on that basis that society is willing to grant special rights and privileges to married couples. So I think you should make a commitment to monogamy, affirm your love for one another and swear an oath that the union is permanent to get married - and you shouldn't be able to sign a pre-nup. Finally I would make divorces harder to get and I would bar anyone from becoming married again who had already been divorced (except for certain reasons), for those people I would have a separate civil union at best. *** But notice that your request is a red herring, I was critical of Hooksexup's reporting and their fairly obvious habit of trashing marriage as old stale and boring. No doubt it is to narcissistic sluts whose idea of a good time is pleasing oneself, but for people who understand what it means to be involved in a project with another person which can become greater than the sum of its parts this kind of article looks so wide of the mark that I would say it wasn't even relevant to the issue.
This feature made me laugh out loud on multiple occasions. Jack, I think a hundred single women are going to read this and start stalking you. I also teeter on whether marriage is a valuable step in a relationship. There is definitely the romantic aspect to it, but really I think it's about security. Tax breaks and the right to pull the plug on your partner (... or keep them alive...). Marriage seems more like a prevention tool after the fantasy party and pretty dresses. The breakup will be way more intense, but at least you'll get the dog.
huh. it's a shame they couldn't get a married person to weigh in on this- greenpoint is filled with hitched hipsters and little punk rock babies! (aww). having two singles discuss marriage- with dubious qualifications- is a bit like talking about the drinks you'd have if you are stuck in an aa meeting.
I disagree cc. I liked that they are not married and have danced around it in their lives. It makes the debate more interesting. I don't want someone who is trapped in a marriage trying to rationalize the institution. If I wanted that I would just go to church.
I'll start out with my stats, Married three years, started dating my wife over eleven years ago, and we have an 18 month old son.
That said, the one thing she is absolutely wrong about, at least in my case, is that "Marriage seems to be the death of heat. It's the beginning of domesticity, which is a nice thing, for sure, but it's the end of hotness." Marriage did nothing to dampen our sex or social life.
Kids, on the other hand, are the real culprit. I love my son more than God, but he's exhausting. Any time that we'd normally be having sex, he's either tearing around the house, or the wife and I are trying to catch up on that precious commodity, sleep. Obviously, our frequency has decreased.
But the cool thing is, I'm not worried about it at all...because when we are able to sneak in a romp, it's still hotter than ever. In fact, the reduced freequency is really making me appreciate it that more. During the rare weekend the wife and I can escape alone, we're still all over each other.
Anyway, in mind mind the real question isn't whether you're pro-marriage...it's whether you're pro-kids. Marriage without kids is a walk in the park
I <3 that Wurtzel trots out totally made-up stats --- it's 50% of ALL marriages that end in divorce. About 1/3 of all FIRST ones do. Where the heck did her numbers come from?
At least use real stats and tell us where they came from. But then she's not a journalist, she's a novelist.
I've been married 10 years, we're still in love, we still have lots of hot, fun sex. We have a child, too. Raising a kid together has only made everything better. I agree 100% with pds--marriage is what each partnership makes it. And sometimes ending a marriage that doesn't work anymore is actually success, not failure.
I find that those that speak loudest against marriage are often those that are single. Not sure why...out of fear of trying? Because of the fact that they [secretly] really do want to get married, but don't have the man/woman in their life currently? I am a 36 year old Angeleno who has been married for over 5 years. There has definitely not been any 'death of hotness' as the flimsy Miss Wurtzel fears. My parents are divorced, yet I didn't let that stop me or prop me up as a crutch. My husband and I didn't go ring shopping together. The proposal was more or less a surprise. We're happily married. We're hip. We're hot. And we're committed to one another. It works.
I've been married for more than 3 decades, and its still hot hot hot, even after the kids. Although, when the kids were little, we were exhausted. But, they get older and have lives of their own, and things got hotter than ever in our marriage. Being married to the right person is an absolute joy. Living with parents who hated each other (as I grew up with) and got divorced was hell for them and hell for me and my siblings. But, it didn't stop me from getting married when I knew I met the right guy in college. Jack-your 'open' relationship sounds just sad-you're in love with someone and want to marry someone who lives with someone else. That just made me sad. If you really want to get married, I'm sure you could find someone wonderful who wants just you.
Nice thoughtful response, I appreciate you backing up your point. Maybe an Hooksexup editor would grant you a debate with one of these folks. Would you be up for doing that?
I find that those that speak loudest against marriage are often those that are single. Not sure why...out of fear of trying? Because of the fact that they [secretly] really do want to get married, but don't have the man/woman in their life currently? I am a 36 year old Angeleno who has been married for over 5 years. There has definitely not been any 'death of hotness' as the flimsy Miss Wurtzel fears. My parents are divorced, yet I didn't let that stop me or prop me up as a crutch. My husband and I didn't go ring shopping together. The proposal was more or less a surprise. We're happily married. We're hip. We're hot. And we're committed to one another. It works.
What if Jack and Erin Bradly took over the Hooksexup debates? I bet that would be excellent.
Don't you think that when a man admits to being cuckolded, he might have, ahem, non-standard views on marriage? Similarly when a woman admits to being drug-addled and easily bored, she too might not be the best authority on commitment? How then, could Hooksexup think that this 'debate' makes any useful contribution to the subject matter at all?
Why should a debate have to be between two "standard" views?
Because then it would be a debate relevant to those who are not cuckolds or narcissistic drug addicts. Duh! When I want a diagnosis I go to a doctor, I don't consult a mechanic and a shaman and have them hash it out.
I think people can still have insightful/wise opinions even if their own lives aren't 100% "normal," or they're not perfectly well-adjusted... I mean, who is?
No doubt they can. But when the issue is whether it makes sense to enter into a monogamous and giving relationship, I think that a cuckold and a narcissist who are both single are particularly unqualified to handle the issue.
Maybe so--I didn't see this as an ultimate and decisive referendum on the institution of marriage, just an interesting discussion between two smart but complicated people, with a number of points I hadn't seen made before.
Well to each his own I guess, but I didn't see anyone say anything particularly smart. In fact most of the comments seemed more insightful than the content of the article.
Great debate. Good points made by all. I am male, mid-30's and am not sure about marriage either. I used to think it was the holy grail. Now, after seeing, as Elizabeth called it, the Death of Heat in most relationships, I question it. Ironic, considering my own parents still appear to have heat after close to 40 years of marriage.
Elizabeth, I enjoy your writing, and I think you're a very talented and attractive woman. Somehow I suspect that your views are largely shaped by your demography,. At some point approaching age 40, your apparent demographic will shift decidedly cougar-ward, and with it, your feelings on marriage, even in the absence of a loudly ticking biological clock.
And now imagine if you COULDN'T get married at all.
After Maine last week I actually can't appreciate columns like this anymore.
LOVE IS TEMPORARY INSANITY CURABLE BY MARRIAGE!
Your writing is simple great, Especially for beginners!
Man, you wrote a long text.
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