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Let's Settle This Ridiculous First-Date Pay Debate Once And For All

Posted by Brian Fairbanks

Last week, there was a column on CNN.com (via the Frisky) which confronted the incredibly annoying and unsettled question: "Who should pay on a first date?"

Besides the stock answer ("the asker"), there was remarkably little of substance in the story's "debate." Since we could care less about offending people with honesty, we'll now respond with a comment that hung over the proceedings: the discussion is incredibly sexist.

While we agree that the noble thing for the "asker" to do is at least offer to take care of the check and tip and to just deal with it if the other person doesn't take the bait by offering to pay half, that's not really the issue here.

First, we have to address this crazy reaction women gave the Frisky writer for even considering a guy who offered to split the check on a first, second, third, and even fourth date:

In my personal experience, if a woman is in any way visibly or audibly bothered by the suggestion to split the tab at the end of a date, there are two possible outcomes for the relationship...

1) she will be revealed as a person who has unrealistic expectations, what we call the "fairytale model." This person may have an extensive list of specific requirements for a relationship, a list that will limit her to only men who will do anything to prove they are worthy, while all others will move on and avoid the hassle.

2) the woman is looking for an excuse to go back to her friends and tell them "he did this one single thing that pissed me off, never mind the rest of the date was amazing, and so, therefore, I won't return his calls again." This is what we refer to as the "fear of rejection" model. In other words, and I know we may be stretching a bit, some women see a man's desire to pay for dinner as proof of interest, while an offer to split means the guy is either a jerk, a stingy jerk, or a not-interested jerk. In many cases, they may be correct.

These are all, of course, pulled out of my ass and are entirely debatable, but keep in mind they are impressions and we decide whether to call based on these impressions.

Second...

What really annoys us guys about this "first date" debate is unrelated to why women get upset about an offer to split the tab instead of the guy just paying outright. It's actually because of comments like this:

And if you [ladies] don't pay for the whole thing, you should at least offer to split the tab. Incredibly (to me), most women I spoke to thought I was an idiot and firmly believed the dude should always pay on a first date -- though for some this was a recent change of heart.

Kate, a 33-year-old writer told me, "I tend to try to pay for myself, but as I get older and more comfortable with my awesomeness, I kind of wish and hope that the other person will be a little more old-fashioned about it." Good point. If someone's eating opposite Amazing Me, shouldn't she or he pay for the privilege? After all, I'm entertaining and cute and if you let me order dessert there may be some smooching in your future.

While the Frisky writer is probably kidding about those followup comments, "Kate" clearly let some serious sexism slip out in her remarks. We're going to have to do a lot better than this if we're going to have equality between the sexes-- if women want to stop being thought of as sex objects, which men can "rent" by paying for dinner (again, this is the male thinking-- he's paying for dinner, what is he getting out of it?), why would they be so stubborn about a split check? 

Even worse, the Frisky story suggests it's practically outrageous to split the check until at least the fourth date. On a personal note, we once dumped a woman for having to pay for her for four dinners in a row: it made her seem like a) she was a conservative and that the real her was still to emerge, b) she was seeing me for the free salmon sandwiches and Chianti. (Matter of fact, that combo should have been a big red flag to begin with....) Or it could've been c) all of the above.

Here's another way of putting it: if you changed the phrase "old-fashioned about it" to "pre-feminist about it," what would you have? You'd have an individual making a complete ass of herself on cnn.com in order to justify their cheapskate point-of-view.

Ladies, we understand why you don't want to split the check-- it's a rough economy out there and dating is extremely expensive, especially when you are still trying to find someone to involve yourself with. But there's only one word for your position on this issue: sexist.

From CNN, via the Frisky.

 

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Comments

Apollo said:

"again, this is the male thinking-- he's paying for dinner, what is he getting out of it"

Isn't this comment sexist?

February 23, 2009 4:47 PM

Brian Fairbanks said:

The point was, if we're thinking about it from a sexist point of view, the woman would think the man is paying, while the man is thinking he's going to get laid.

February 23, 2009 4:48 PM

steveowinlow said:

Life's not fair.  Assume that you are paying and enjoy yourself.  

February 23, 2009 5:42 PM

Anon said:

What I find problematic here is the undercurrent of hostility in your post. That certainly doesn't seem "pro-feminist" to me at all.

February 23, 2009 7:57 PM

FLA said:

No one can ever win in this debate.  Brian's observations are accurate in many cases.  I will add to this that us women are told constantly by "dating experts" that if we are too forward with trying to pay for a first date, then we risk damaging the fragile ego of the man trying to court us and there won't be a second date (and if there is it's because he's a leech).  

When it's all said and done, deciding the proper first date etiquette for your situation depends upon knowing the person you are with in a way you could never possibly know that person on a first date.  Therefore it's a ridiculous debate.  And if you met through Millionaire Matchmaker, then he's definitely paying.

But what do I know--I've never properly dated anyone.  My typical first date has involved taco bell and oral sex--and I'm in my mid-thirties.

February 23, 2009 9:05 PM

feargus said:

We also could consider this point, which was only brought to my attention recently. Women generally (i would say almost universally) spend a lot more money on their appearance than guys. Sure this is their choice (and there are a whole lot of factors involved in that choice) but the fact remains that the end result of that investment for us guys is that we get to sit across the table from a fine looking woman.

Sure we make an effort to, and hopefully we r looking good as well (especially on a first date), but there really is no comparison. Aesthetics are great, we like to look at each other, we like to look at beautiful things, and women generally present a far superior canvas to men.

So is it not then reasonable that, in return for being presented with something delightful and delicious to look at all evening, that we cough up a bit extra for the meal.

I'm just sayin that a lot of the woman's investment comes before the date, so there seems to be a balance in the man investing at the time of the date.

February 23, 2009 10:15 PM

maybeapril said:

Wait a second...

Doesn't a woman have as much of a right to get pissed off that you want to split the bill, as you get pissed off by women who get pissed off by this? Isn't this just a logical way of weeding out what kind of men you want/don't want to date? Maybe not all women want to date "liberal, feminist" males. Maybe some women subscribe to "pre-feminist" ideology, not it's synonymous to being barefoot and pregnant, but because there are some traditional values which they deem important.

The first date is good for getting to know the person, and if it really pisses you off, then stop dating said person. Who the hell cares what acceptable social decorum says?

The only thing that's unacceptable is outright hostility. A woman should not be rude because she has to pay for her own meal, just as a man shouldn't be rude because he felt he was obligated to pay. It's courteous to offer, but by no means should you do it if you don't want to. That would be giving the wrong impression.

February 24, 2009 1:51 AM

Monique said:

Yeah, what Maybearpril said.

February 24, 2009 9:54 AM

shootemupsally said:

feargus,

You're right, but not in a good way, and that's what makes this whole debate so touchy. You shouldn't pay to spend time with someone because and expect to get something in return (yeah, the opportunity to admire is getting something in return if you don't think the admiration is mutual). If you want to pay to admire a woman, go to a strip club. What if a woman showed up on a date with you in a sensible outfit, ponytail, and no makeup? Would you feel like you were getting cheated? I would much rather pay for myself and not feel like I have to "return the favor" in any unspoken way.

Then again, you and I (not that we know each other) are probably not the kinds of people who would hit it off, and you're expectation to pay reflects the kind of woman you're looking for, and vice versa. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with saying that your'e looking for the kind of girl who takes extra time with her appearance and you're the kind of guy who insists on paying. I guess that the pay/not paying arrangement is another way of measuring compatibility?

just some thoughts

February 24, 2009 9:56 AM

Apollo said:

I typically pay on first dates but that's because I think it's a good way to express interest. I don't have problems with women buying me drinks or even meals but if it's a first date I won't take someone out unless I can afford both meals.

February 24, 2009 12:01 PM

pmeeks said:

Women want equality only when it fits their needs.

In the work place: I can do anything a man can do so I deserve the same pay even though I'll take 4 months of maternity leave during a major project.

On dates: Tee'hee I'm a lady you should be paying.

It's like that Rihanna bitch that got smacked around. You want equality? You can equally get your ass beat when you talk shit.

Editor: You are not helping, dumbass.

February 24, 2009 1:10 PM

feargus said:

shootemupsally...well said and thanks for the reply.

I agree that i'm right, but not in a good way. Was making general observation, rther than stating my preference. Many problems with the reasons behind why women put as much effort into their appearance as they do. While i'm all for having a world which is visually pleasing, i know that the costs involved don't really balance out the little bit of pleasure I get.

My preference would be - the asker pays on the first date (cos that's just a nice thing to do), probably reciprocal arrangements on the second date, and then alternating arrangments form that point on (works out the same as splitting the bill, but with the added bonus of both parties getting to feel a bit special cos they r being "treated").

"Sensible outfit, ponytail, and no makeup" can be just as wonderful, if not more wonderful, than the full works. Interestingly, as a man, i don't think the same is true for men. A nattily outfitted fella looks great, a casually dressed amle can often look pretty ordinary. Does this statement ring true for the female gaze? Thoughts would be appreciated.

February 24, 2009 7:14 PM

maybeapril said:

feargus,

Depends on what the girl prefers and what the occasion is. I think it's generally kind of uncomfortable when anyone is overdressed for some really casual. It's nice to take a shower and shave. It's nice to put on a button-down shirt if you're taking someone to dinner at a decent restaurant. You don't have to put on a tie for pizza, though.

Mostly, it's just that you have to pull off whatever your wearing with full confidence. Men, women, outer space aliens with purple skin and 7 heads, yeah, they all like that.

February 24, 2009 7:51 PM

feargus said:

Ah yes, the reveal - with confidence....the greatest turn-on in the book.

February 24, 2009 9:03 PM

Texan said:

Oh, for Pete's sake, stop acting like a panty-waist and pay the bill, Brian. Every time.

For reference, see the two Fran McDormand date scenes in 'Burn After Reading' -- one with a weenie, another with George Clooney. Though it's not shown, you can bet the loser guy kvetched about splitting the bill, and Clooney assuredly paid the whole thing.

On a more serious note, you've gotta quit equating 'equal' with 'same'. Men and women are of equal importance and deserve equal kindness and regard, but they are, and always will be, deliciously different. They fit together like puzzle pieces, literally and figuratively. Paying for dinner isn't necessarily whoring out the woman -- that's the intent an ill-minded man layers onto it. A healthy man would look at this as willingly letting go of some of his hard-earned resources for the pleasure of the company of a lovely woman -- and what better reason? In so doing, she feels valued because he's tangibly putting something of himself into the interaction, and so forth ...

To this day, I always pay for every meal with my wife, every little sundry we pick up at the grocery store; heck, I even open her car door for her, every time. Now, admittedly, it's been a while since I've been on a first date, as we've been together now for 13 years, so what would I know about treating a lady ... :P

March 2, 2009 9:05 AM

About Brian Fairbanks

Brian Fairbanks, the Senior National Political Correspondent for Hooksexup, is a filmmaker living in Brooklyn or New Orleans, depending on the season. He is a heavily-armed advocate of gun control.

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