Savage Love sex and dating advice column on religion, gay teens, transsexual pornography, and bisexuality. | hooksexup.com

Oct 12th, 2010

A Christian writer chastises Dan for defaming religious people; sparks fly. Plus: how can you know if your boyfriend is bi?

I was listening to the radio yesterday morning, and I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man, and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.

Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L.R.

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying.

Why the hell not?

Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it's clear that you do believe that some people — straight people — are "better or more worthy" than others.

And — sorry — but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality — even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person) — learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Gay and lesbian children.

Try to keep up: the dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children — having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry — feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" queer kids. Your encouragement — along with your hatred and fear — is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we're seeing the fruits of it: dead children.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the Hooksexup to ask me to be more careful with my words?

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh — day-in, day-out for years — at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call Mom and Dad.

I am engaged to a man whose sexual orientation is somewhat confusing to me.

A few months ago, I discovered transgender porn on his computer. When I asked him about it, he said he just watches all kinds of porn "just to watch it." That sounded like total bullshit to me — and it was proved to be total bullshit when I discovered that he watches ONLY this type of porn. I also recently discovered a letter he had composed a few years back to another man asking him to "hook up," stating that my fiancé had had a one-night stand with another guy and really wanted to do it again. The letter also states that my fiancé had a girlfriend, and since "discretion is very important" to him, he could only hook up when she was out of town.

I can deal with somebody being bisexual. I have bisexual fantasies myself. However, I can't deal with someone lying to himself and to me, and being unfaithful. Sadly, I can't really make this guy confess to me that he is bi. When I tried, he simply told me, "You are so blind." What does that mean?

I really don't want to dump the guy. I love him. My question is, I guess, what the fuck do I do? I feel like crazy bitch supreme trying to get this out of him, but it's impossible not to think about.

Bitchy Girlfriend

There's nothing to be confused about: Your fiancé is very clearly bisexual. Gay men just aren't into chicks-with-dicks porn; that's a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.

So why can he be open about his cocksuckery with a complete stranger — that dude he sent the letter that you "discovered" — but not with you?

It's a tired cliché, I realize, and I shy away from it for that reason, but in this case the shoe fits: your fiancé has a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He finds it easier to be open with someone he doesn't care about and is unlikely to see ever again precisely because he doesn't care about that person and isn't going to see him again. If you or the other people in his life he's close to knew, he fears you would see him as damaged or inferior because that's how he sees himself.

So, yep, a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He's not entirely responsible for contracting this malady — our homophobic culture is the disease vector here — but, as an adult, he is responsible for working through it, for overcoming it, for being truthful with himself and the people he claims to love.

If he can't be honest with you — the snoop he claims to love — about his sexual orientation, and if being cheated on is deal breaker for you (and he will cheat on you), don't marry him.

I'm a loud fucker, just like the partner of the woman who wrote in recently. With my consent, my partner uses a pillow to dampen my screams, so I don't have to worry I'll piss off the neighbors.

Lesbians Do Scream

It's all fun and games — loud fun, ear-splitting games — until someone accidentally asphyxiates a screamer. But thanks for sharing, LDS.

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) at thestranger.com/savage.

Comments ( 52 )

Dan, you are a wise man. After the recent Macaulay Culkin beating, your cogent campaign grows even more significant, now that celebrities are being affected. Keep up the good work Dan, and soldier on Mac!

bearman33 commented on Oct 12 10 at 11:35 pm

DAN YOU ARE FUCKING AWESOME.

jj commented on Oct 13 10 at 12:08 am

thanks for telling like it is, we need more people like you out there!

morgan commented on Oct 13 10 at 1:20 am

"Magic sky friend Jesus"? You've gotta be fucking kidding me, Dan. If you want to tell a guy off, try communicating like a grown human being. You sound like an angry preteen brat. So while you may have a point, you waste it with this infantile showboating for your readers, joining the ranks of guys who think saying "fuck you" enough makes them edgy and relevant.

Really? commented on Oct 13 10 at 2:46 am

Except sometimes politeness is completely and utterly not the proper approach. Saying "Fuck you" just to be edgy isn't what's going on here. Saying "Fuck you" because, at this juncture, it's the only appropriate level of irateness, is.

"I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore."

Are you familiar with the movie from which this comes, really? It is called Network, and there's a fine monologue which you'd do well to consider.

Really, really? commented on Oct 13 10 at 3:42 am

The 'Magic sky friend jesus' comment is a keeper, just like leotarded!

Fla commented on Oct 13 10 at 6:03 am

Savage is such a blow hard. He sounds like a petulant child.

NN commented on Oct 13 10 at 6:32 am

"Dan. If you want to tell a guy off, try communicating like a grown human being." Ok, why do some grown human beings believe in fairy tales? If you believe in God, why not believe in unicorns? Elves? Aliens? There is the same amount of proof and reason to believe in those as there is to believe in God. And at least unicorn-devotees don't try to use their beliefs as a justification for oppression and to establish public policy.

Moops commented on Oct 13 10 at 6:37 am

Dan Savage is a child? Really? Christians who get butt-hurt about gay rights are the ones who are being childish. "Play by our rules or else!"

grady lala commented on Oct 13 10 at 6:39 am

Hey,
I am a christian myself,I also confess that I may sound hypocritical but my belief is if a person is gay then that's their prerogative.What I don't understand is the need to insult Christians just because of their faith.Like the guy asked how is that any different from what is been done to the gay community.Maybe coz I'm not American and I don't understand the difficulty most gay people face in the christian community there but...really going for "Magic Sky Jesus Friend"isn't really going to solve any issues is it?

African Girl commented on Oct 13 10 at 7:32 am

@Reall? I think it's easy to misunderstand Dan Savage because of his anger and his forcefulness. There are many tactics to confronting the enemy. @Really?, you obviously are some one for whom diplomatic channels are preferred, which is awesome, but not every one finds that appropriate at all times. Being nice and polite and following the rules and trying not to piss people off can be a powerful method to advocate for change, but sometimes you need a different approach. In an advice column with a wide readership, I think it's perfectly appropriate to be caustic, deeply angered, and not afraid to say fuck off. Tactics need to be applied based on the situation, in this medium Savage's vitriol-filled words are acceptable and encouraging. How many LGBTQ kids struggling out there are going to read this and take comfort/support/get galvanized.? A lot I would conjecture.

ecj commented on Oct 13 10 at 7:56 am

In no way is Dan Savage saying that any one who believes in God or is spiritual or is Christian is a hatemonger or a homophobic douche bag. What he is commenting on is a specific type of rhetoric used by Christians who are somewhere on the scale between, I'm fine with gays but not teaching my children or getting married and blind, outspoken, unadulterated prejudice. And yes, this rhetoric does involve a lot of talk about how gays hurt families and gay sex is the worst thing that could ever happen in the world (SOOO much wrose than genocide, right!?). @African Girl, I think what pissed Dan off wasn't that the woman writing in was Christian, but that she was "tolerant" yet didn't believe in gay marriage. Dan's point is that even if you're not giving your children a gun to go hunt down gay people, if you believe that gay people shouldn't marry, or teach your children, or be in your church, then you're teaching your child that LGBTQ people are inferior. And while your homophobia, carefully cloaked in a faux-Christian rhetoric of "moral and family values", may manifest itself as pretending to be tolerant yet barring LGBTQ people from legal or social equality, you can't control how your children's learned homophobia will manifest at school.

Had this woman written in to say I'm Christian but I believe in equality for every one and I'm deeply saddened by all these deaths, I think Dan's answer would have been different. The problem is her instance that she's "accepting" even though she thinks gay marriage is wrong. And that the real problem is Dan Savage isn't being politically correct and considering towards Christians, not that children are dying. It's that attitude that earns her a big Fuck You from Dan Savage, and from me. We're at a critical time. Now is not the time to maintain that you're not TECHNICALLY being a bad person by being a Christian and thinking LGBTQ people don't deserve equality. You're supporting the hate and the rhetoric of the hate that just killed five children. We don't give a fuck about your feelings. Get on board or be prepared to answer for your part in these deaths. And yes, we will hold you accountable.

ecj commented on Oct 13 10 at 8:17 am

GO DAN!!!

I'd also like to express my frustration over how those with privilege (white people, straight people, etc) ALWAYS make it about themselves: "I'm not mean and would never wish hurt on anyone," etc. "Systems of oppression" is not an empty phrase, people. No one accused you, personally, of being a bad person, but being a "good person" is unfortunately not mutually exclusive with belonging to a Church that fundamentally does not support women's rights or gays' rights.

Zoe commented on Oct 13 10 at 9:14 am

It's just like someone enjoying Macaulay Culkin's movies, but then disapproving of his lifestyle.

bearman33 commented on Oct 13 10 at 9:55 am

One of those bigoted little monsters told my daughter that all gay people are going to hell and that her mom and dad were baby killers because I'm a pretty active libreal in our community. You think a 9-year-old girl made that shit up on her own? My daughter was in tears...I was horrified. If the idiot who wrote Dan the e-mail thinks that the rhetoric against gays and gay marriage (and anyone who doesn't agree with them or go to their church) doesn't encourage their kids to torture others for being different or having different opinions they are dead wrong. Every day I am struck by the irony that the people in my house, a house full of socially active agnostics that shun organized religion, treat people with the respect, tolerence and love that those throwing their bibles around and sitting in pews every Sunday morning only give lip service to.

Shea commented on Oct 13 10 at 10:19 am

Give 'em Hell, Dan! (No, really, give 'em Hell... they can take that fairytale place along with the rest of their made-up crap.)

Brian Fairbanks commented on Oct 13 10 at 10:39 am

Take my Hell, please.

bearman33 commented on Oct 13 10 at 10:43 am

The founding fathers were clear in their separation of church and state. The privileges of marriage in state and federal law are matters of civil privilege. You don't want gay marriage in your church, I don't care. All marriages should be "civil unions." Just let me marry my dog in peace.

AB commented on Oct 13 10 at 12:14 pm

@ecj You make a solid point about gay children finding comfort in this, so I admit I was being a little harsh in my earlier comment. I just think people like Dan need to take the high road with this issue. For something that is unmistakably one of the most heated social issues of this time, people like him who are taking a stance of leadership need to show that they're not going to stoop to hatefully fanning the flames. That kind of stuff only results in more violence as both sides come to despise each other. Still I'm glad people like you can use these threads to be civil and logical, so props.

Really? commented on Oct 13 10 at 12:29 pm

thank you dan.

dani commented on Oct 13 10 at 12:43 pm

the solution to the gay marriage issue is so easy, and yet it will never fly with the religious groups so eager to push their views on others.

this is hiw it would work: everyone must optain a civil union license, providing all the legal foundations, protections and privledges. Marriage would be solely a religious ceremony of recognition, completely independent of any and all governmental regulation or testriction, but free to regulate and/or restrict as each cult, er i mean church, sees fit.

Pop Culture Blows commented on Oct 13 10 at 1:08 pm

Hell yes! What Dan said!
Until the citizens of the US put a stop to institutionalized discrimination these bigots will feel perfectly justified in treating the LGBT population like second-class citizens. Or worse.

Agnostics and atheists have no say in what is taught in churches but we sure as hell have a right to say what goes on in the government and in public schools.

It is impossible to "accept" and be "tolerant" of gay people and simultaneously deny them basic human rights. The hypocrisy is astonishing.

Sheyna commented on Oct 13 10 at 2:24 pm

In several European countries (though not the one I'm from) religious marriages are not legally binding - you have to have a civil marriage first, then a religious one if you so choose. Perhaps this is an idea the U.S. should take on.

MG commented on Oct 13 10 at 3:09 pm

@MG: Bingo! Problem solved... the majority seem OK wirh gay civil unions, just not "marriage." So let's simply take marriage iff of the government's table (where it never belonged anyway).

Pop Culture Blows commented on Oct 13 10 at 3:34 pm

Dan you are a LEGEND

MsWilde commented on Oct 13 10 at 3:43 pm

thanks, dan, for not holding back in dealing with these assholes.

hkc commented on Oct 13 10 at 5:43 pm

Dan said: " A question: do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying.

Why the hell not?"

There is a simple answer. It's a political issue...Christians are (by definition of scripture) required to be politically neutral and not get involved. How's that for "separation of church and state"? ;) As a Christian, I stand by the Bible's definition of marriage...but whether any other arrangements are legal or not is none of my business...because I do not get involved in politics in any way. So I neither support nor deny. I simply live my life according to scripture, and leave the judgment to God.

I will add (as I've said before) that I can stand in a garage screaming "vroom vroom" and say I'm a car...that doesn't make me a car. Those who hate their neighbor can *say* they are Christians all they want...but by scriptural definitions...they aren't. Plain and simple. The Bible teaches a very simple "hate the sin, not the sinner" mentality. Those who do not follow it no more represent God than Mark David Chapman represented John Lennon.

Dude commented on Oct 13 10 at 6:05 pm

You know...That's such an awesome response to the "holier than the "holier than thou" set. I've had these types in my family forever. All smiley on the outside but inside thinking, ain't it a shame they're going to hell for not believing in what "I" believe is the "ultimate truth.

I will keep this as a link for the next time those do-gooders try to invite me to a holiday dinner all the while hoping I show up so they can ask me if I am aware to the "true word."

When you pick pieces of one ideology and denigrate the rest (referring to science here..like going to the Drs and taking pills invented by godless pagans) then get all judgmental on how others live their lives...you deserve ridicule and mocking.

Thanks Dan for telling it hard cold and straight up to the Jebus lovah, even though, you and I both know...they will never get it!

jaw commented on Oct 13 10 at 7:34 pm

I love how these people of the magic jesus get all bent when you call him Magic!

What the hell is it if it ain't magic?

It takes a real strength to live in this world w/o a savior!

Maybe w/o a savior who gives out comic get out of jail free cards by saying magic words, people would just have to be nice because it is the right thing to do, not getting something in the backend...no pun intended...unless you like it like that!

stepford commented on Oct 13 10 at 7:39 pm

"Magic sky friend Jesus" is my favorite. My heart swells with my love of Dan Savage.

Hope commented on Oct 13 10 at 7:44 pm

dan (and shea)...c'mon, intolerance is not the answer. Hating the many for the actions of the few is always wrong, whether it's blaming all Muslims for the actions of terrorists or blaming all gays for... I dunno... sleeping around or whatever. You can't hold all Christians accountable for the actions of the few, that should violate liberal moral code on every level. And don't forget, it's hardly just Christians... the Rutgers student was tormented by two Asian/South Asian students who were probably not Christian at all, and homosexuality is still punishable by death/imprisonment in many Muslim countries... Your anger is misdirected, and by blaming one group you are not only distracting from the real problem, you are fomenting prejudice against others for their lifestyles and beliefs as an acceptable MO...

anon commented on Oct 13 10 at 8:19 pm

I agree with Dan's argument, but like some other commenters(?) I think that the caustic and aggressive nature of his response wasn't the right way to go.
The question was posed in a non-judgmental way (besides the implicit judgmental nature of the church itself), but Dan was deliberately antagonistic. Now L.R will have an even worse opinion of the gay community and will propagate this hatred to her friends, family etc.
Dan is one of the worlds biggest spokesperson for LGBTQ rights, and petty, pissy arguments could ultimately damage the cause.

Rubix commented on Oct 13 10 at 10:11 pm

No, no, no -- Dan was right because "I don't really hate gays but don't approve of them marrying, teaching, etc, etc" is just not appropriate in this day and age. Try substituting "black" for "gay." If your beliefs tell you that gays don't have certain rights -- any at all -- you are prejudiced, bigoted, deluded, and simply inappropriate. Just like someone who hates any other minority, you ought to be shamed. Period.

eh commented on Oct 14 10 at 3:39 am

Dan's response is perfect and necessary. Personally, I think the problem with this debate, from a political and societal perspective, is that we let too many bigots take refuge in "I have no problem with gays, but they can't marry, serve their nation, get equal tax status, etc." That may sound nice from the pulpit, but it's utter bullshit.

When it comes to civil rights, there are no gray areas. There is no separate but equal. Either you have all civil rights, or you don't.

So man up and choose a side. Either gays have the exact same rights as everyone else; or they're a bunch of faggots born to rot in hell. But do not hide behind flowery rhetoric like "hate the sin, not the sinner." I almost have more respect for people like the westboro baptist church, than I do senator mccain. At least westboro has the conviction to stand behind their true beliefs (albeit batshit crazy beliefs).

It is nothing short of cowardice to say that you do not have any problems with gays, but that they're not entitled to civil rights.

dave1976 commented on Oct 14 10 at 10:50 am

@dave1976...since you quoted me, I'm assuming you're addressing me.

The fact is, "hate the sin and not the sinner" *IS* my creed. My "true belief" that I will stand behind no matter what. I am also saying, that my belief is that it is not my place. I act in the capacity of an ambassador. An ambassador acts only as a representative of his government, but cannot and should not get involved in the political disputes of the government of which he is currently residing in. Therefore, as a true Christian, I take *no sides* in this political issue. Any person who calls themselves Christian, and gets involved in politics, violates the scriptures they claim to represent. I'm only here to operate as an ambassador of God's law, and whether or not this is legal or illegal in the country I happen to occupy is not something I can or should get involved in.

Dude commented on Oct 14 10 at 6:38 pm

Dude (ha ha), first, I wasn't quoting you directly (didn't even concsiously realize you used that quote). I only meant that many zealots hide behind that quote as a means to appear civil in order to hide their bigotry. Case in point: you.

Second, a true Christian shouldn't get involved in political disputes? That's the biggest line of bullshit if there ever was one. What about the thousands of chritstians who petition their politicians to abolish abortion rights; or the catholics who decided to get "political" and hide jews from Nazis?

God never said sit on the sidelines and do whatever your government says. I'm pretty sure catholic protesters are doing the exact opposite when they sit outside prisons in opposition to the death penalty.

dave1976 commented on Oct 14 10 at 6:54 pm

Dan, you're an inspiration. She had it coming.

Kebnabi commented on Oct 14 10 at 8:19 pm

@Dave1976...you said: "What about the thousands of chritstians who petition their politicians to abolish abortion rights; or the catholics who decided to get "political" and hide jews from Nazis?"

As I stated earlier, simply claiming to be a Christian does not make someone (or a group of someones) Christian. In order to be a Christian, one must (by definition) be a follower of Christ's commands. Christ said to love your enemies, and be no part of the disputes of this world. Therefore (by definition) anyone who does not love their enemies and goes to war is not following the commands of Christ. Therefore, they are not Christians. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. So all of your examples (by Jesus own definition) are not relevant because they don't follow the teachings of Christ.

Dude commented on Oct 14 10 at 9:23 pm

I think the issue isn't that the religious don't think gays are entitled to civil rights, it is that they don't see marriage as a civil right.

NN commented on Oct 15 10 at 2:30 pm

ecj.......your explanation of what Dan thinks and what he meant by his response is more than a little presumptive. I think you assume too much. And stop apologizing for him. Let what he says stand on it's own, right or wrong.

ricochet commented on Oct 16 10 at 8:53 pm

I question whether many of the 'christian' side of the public debate really are christians. Do they demonstrate charity, compassion, humility and concern for all people? Are they trying to help people, or trying to push their own beliefs onto others?

Unless their participation in civil society has value that is obvious to non-christians, then their claim of moral authority is irrelevant.

Civil rights are a matter of consensus. But bestowing civil rights on non-heterosexual couples causes no objective damage to christian heterosexuals, and has benefits to non-heterosexuals. They care because it violates their beliefs. But they are not the ones experiencing any loss, and their beliefs are not relevant to the group that is. That's why we have separation of church and state.

I don't like Dan's tone. But his point is correct. If these so-called christians are going to claim moral authority on this point, please show me what they've done to earn it.

me commented on Oct 16 10 at 10:16 pm

Dude, maybe your religion is defined by "following Christ's commands," but I think your salvation is dependent upon something FAR different. We are saved by faith, which is manifested in a repentant heart. Not a perfect heart, or perfect actions. But one that aims for perfection. (just a friendly point of distinction :)

But regardless, Dan's spot on with calling out the hypocrites. Apathy and NIMBYism fucking kill. So maybe people should leave the condemning to God. And for Christ's sake, ditch the state-sponsored marriage bullshit.

Christine commented on Oct 17 10 at 12:14 pm

@Christine - couldn't agree more on your second point on hypocrisy and marriage.

On the first point - I understand and agree with the distinction. My point is that justification by faith *alone*, without good works, is a very questionable theory. It really calls into question the sincerity of that that "faith". That's the basis on which I question their "christianity" - if their faith is not strong enough to change their behavior towards fellow humans, if it's not strong enough to make them follow the substance of their god's instructions, then their "faith" is a bit like an obese person who watches Oprah talking about how hard it is to lose weight while pigging out on doritos and feels good about themselves as a result. Maybe that's enough (in their theology) to get them into heaven. Who knows. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Moreover, I'm not a christian. So if they claim moral authority due to their faith, and their only grounds for it is the faith itself, then I'm not going to be very impressed. If the only "good works" they have to show is proselytizing, that's not going to help their case much either.

me commented on Oct 17 10 at 10:59 pm

@Me. Word, buddy. I agree on all counts. The faith alone is nonsense, and until you've seen asswipes lose their minds at altar call after a sin-filled Saturday night, only to repeat it all again the next week, you don't quite understand the monstrous hate-on I have for these people. I used to be Pentecostal, so I know.

Faith is between a person and God (or whatever). I don't want to discuss a person's faith detail and I don't want to hear about it and you don't get any earthly points for it. I do, however, have respect for people who try to do better than what is expected of them, and what they have previously done. Theologically, that is closer to the Christian salvation idea than behaving perfectly. But absolutely. Nothing is more irritating than the Bible being right because it says it is, or a faithful person being better because they say they are.

Christine commented on Oct 18 10 at 7:02 pm

1st, let me say that it makes no sense that gay marriage is not 'legal' in the same sense that straight marriage is. Marriage is a religious institution. We have freedom of religion. Thus, we should have freedom of marriage. (On the same token, churches should still be able to marry/recognize marriages of their choosing, just not choose who outside of the faith gets married.)

What I do object to is Dan's use of language. Saying 'gay children' seems to be a fallacy in and of itself. By the time that you are old enough to even be confused about the subject in the way that it personally relates to you, I think that the term child is inappropriate. Additionally, it seems wrong to say that they are 'dying' or that people are 'killing them'. They are committing suicide, and that should not be regarded as equal to the other two statements.

NotChristian commented on Oct 19 10 at 4:21 pm

Suicide is one manner of "dying," among others; to drive a person to suicide is, if only in the broadest possible sense, to "kill" him or her; hence Dan's words may strike you as overwrought, but they're not outright fallacious. I understand the distinction you're drawing, but while granting that suicide is a choice, on the available information it hardly seems plausible that homophobia DIDN'T play a substantial role in decisions of these particular kids to kill themselves.

The phrase "gay children" undoubtedly strikes some readers as provocative and others as merely sloppy. But many -- perhaps most -- LGBTQ people will tell you that they became aware of their sexual "difference," however inchoate, long before puberty.

reader commented on Oct 19 10 at 8:15 pm

What you said Dan, plus these words from that Jesus fellow that the Christians are on about (do they know that He was a Jew?).

Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do so unto me.

call_me_cassandra commented on Oct 20 10 at 8:01 am

Good writting in the rebuttle Mr. savage-
It's "intresting" to read some of the comments here-ESP. where a woman says she's christian& Does not judge folks who are differant(GAY)!
Lets see now--When you Belong to a church they (basicly) teach you that you are "BETTER" than those who don't believe&behave the same as you--To me that was PERMMISSION to (at least) look down my nose at "those Differant people"-If churches did not make folks feel special RE superior---Than no one would go back!

Cuckhold Don commented on Oct 21 10 at 11:13 pm

i LOVED your responsed to the first one.

Dearest Mr. Savage, commented on Oct 22 10 at 12:33 pm

Dan! You lost me on this one. I'm not sure you actually read what the guy wrote before you tried to slam him. Am I the only one that noticed you didn't answer his questions?

John commented on Oct 23 10 at 9:44 pm

Leave a Comment