Miss Information
My boyfriend and his best friend have no boundaries. Am I wrong to feel jealous?
by Cait Robinson
Have a question? Email . Letters may be edited for length, content, and clarity.
Dear Miss Information,
A few months ago, I started dating this wonderful guy. He's great, we get along perfectly, and we can tell each other (almost) anything. Things are moving fast, I will admit, but it feels right. He's a genuinely good guy; basically, he has his shit together. He asked me to move in with him and I did.
I love his family, and most of his friends are the nicest people I've ever met. There's one problem: his best friend. I get this weird, standoffish feeling from her. They've only known each other for a little longer than he and I have been dating, so I think it's kind of weird that their friendship is so... intense, for lack of a better word.
K, let's call her, is a lesbian, so she thinks it's okay to prance around his apartment in her underwear when she comes over, and stuff like that. ("Ha-ha! You can touch my boobs in front of your girlfriend because I'm a lesbian!") She's the same age as my boyfriend, and he told me once that she asked him to be the sperm donor in a few years when she decides she wants to have children. She's very clingy with him, and super-protective. Also, when the three of us hang out, she makes these vaguely offensive remarks about how she could "never, ever" date a younger girl because they're oh-so-immature (and will usually add an "amirite?" aimed at my boyfriend). It offends me, because she knows I'm a few years younger than him.
He almost treats her like a girlfriend too. She has a drawer here, he always buys her dinner, she has a key to the apartment, he takes her out on these little dates (that I'm not sure if I'm included in — I'm never invited and I try to give him his space) and sometimes they act like a couple. It's nice to see how well he treats other women, objectively speaking. But I'm his girlfriend, and seeing him act like that around her makes me jealous and a little uncomfortable. Maybe I just don't understand the dynamics of a straight male/lesbian friendship. I don't know.
I'm being nice to K because she's my boyfriend's best friend. I feel bad, because I'm being fake and I think I'm really bad at it. I always try to be polite, but I'm not really getting anything back. We don't have to be best friends, but it would be nice if she weren't such a bitch towards me. It's getting to the point where if he mentions she's coming around, I'll just say hi to her and then retreat off into a corner somewhere and leave them be.
I don't think that my boyfriend is secretly attracted to K. We're pretty open about things like that, and I've discussed this with him before. His answer is no, he's not, and I believe him. It's mostly her being clingy, weird, and overly protective. I understand to a point — I have protective friends too, but she makes me feel awkward for even holding his hand when we're out. I don't want to keep secrets from him, and I feel really bad. How do I approach this subject without sounding like a crazy jealous girlfriend or starting an all-out war? Am I being uptight?
— The Other Woman?
Dear The Other Woman?,
When you throw in the parenthetical "you can touch my boobs because I'm a lesbian," is that hyperbole, or did that happen? If that happened, that is unbelievable, two-a.m.-on-Bravo behavior. In short: weird and not okay.
Sexuality is a red herring here. K (and your boyfriend) hide behind her lesbianism as if it somehow invalidates the fact that their relationship lacks appropriate boundaries. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter where K falls on the Kinsey scale; sex is only one component of intimacy. Maybe their closeness isn't physical, but it's still intimate. From that perspective, it sounds like you and she are competing for the same niche in his life. This isn't a gay-straight-friendship issue at all; this is a boundary issue.
It's interesting that while you say your own relationship with your boyfriend started and progressed really quickly (you moved in together after only a few months?), you seem mystified that his relationship with K is "so intense." This could be a pattern for your boyfriend: "commit fast, pull 'em close, give them part of my apartment." This rapid, intense intimacy raises some red flags, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and set those aside for now. As it stands, he gets to have two girlfriends for the price of one (even if he only sleeps with you), which is not fair to you, and — judging from her reaction — isn't going over well with K, either.
You seem full of doubt about your rights in this relationship; strengthen that backbone. You're his girlfriend. You live with him. In a battle royale between you and K (please don't have a battle royale), you have the home-team advantage. Your boyfriend needs to take your feelings seriously, because you're the one he committed to. Though K sounds combative, don't waste your energy fighting with her. Her behavior is a symptom of a bigger problem. Whether he realizes it or not, your boyfriend is the one who put you both in this situation, and he needs to be held accountable.
Talk to your boyfriend and tell him that you need K to be his friend. Friends don't feel each other's boobs, and friends don't have drawers at their friends' house. Friends have — and respect! — their friends' boundaries. Say your piece, then — most importantly — listen to what he has to say. Surely he notices the tension, right? What does he think will help things? Work together to come up with an agreement that feels more comfortable.
Now back to those red flags. This might not go over well with him. The situation he has right now sounds really great for him, and really uncomfortable for both you and K. If he truly loves you or K, he should recognize that he needs to work with you both to make this situation workable for all of you. But if he balks, makes excuses, or implies you're being unreasonable, give real thought to whether he is the great guy you thought he was. Have faith in your experience, and ask for what you need confidently. You will hopefully be met with a loving and cooperative response.
Dear Miss Info,
I've been with my boyfriend for about six years now. About two weeks ago, he started to ignore me. He's not calling me at all; I do all the calling to check up on him. I tried to talk to him about this and all he said is that he "is so busy" and "has no time to talk to me" but he loves me. Every time I call him, he apologizes and says he loves me. How is it possible not to find a minute to call and say hi for two whole weeks? I'm confused and feel trapped. Is he breaking up with me, and he just can't say it to my face? Something doesn't seem right to me. I'm worried and sad all the time. I really want to stop crying over this and take a breath for a while. I just wish he would be more clear with me so I could have a better view about what is going on.
— BF AWOL
Dear BF AWOL,
"I'm just so busy!" is one of the most overused excuses in the modern lexicon. People make time for the things they care about. When someone brushes off your concerns with "I've just been so busy," what it actually means is, "I haven't made time to see you and I don't want to risk an actual conversation by being any more specific than that. Good talk! I'm going to Dairy Queen."
You need answers. Tell him that this uncertainty feels like you are being blown off, and that it's making you wildly unhappy. If he "loves you," he should take you seriously. Expect a real conversation, and don't tolerate excuses. If he refuses to rise to the challenge, don't hang on waiting for approval. Reconnect with friends, family, and activities that give your life meaning. Don't stay at home wringing your hands and weeping; force yourself back into the world. Either he'll come around and give you the explanation you deserve, or you can burn that t-shirt he used to sleep in. Either way, he needs to know that non-answers are not acceptable for someone he says he loves.
Commentarium (40 Comments)
LW2, time to stop calling him, and move on. But tell him. Be frank and tell him you're looking for more out of a relationship than he's apparently ready to give. Tell him you're ready to move on. And be ready! Tell him he's more than welcome to call, and if you're free you more than likely will go out. but you are looking for more. Two weeks is ridiculous.
This.
This is classic "guy wants out of a relationship and doesn't want to be the bad guy" behavior. It sounds like he is trying to push her into breaking up with him.
I've dealt with a guy like this before. He acted exactly like this, finally a friend of mine (who knew what was going on) told him to "man up" and break up with me rather than not calling or making time for me. Even as he broke up with me over the phone he said, "I love you," and "See you later," as if we weren't even breaking up.
You need to tell your guy that you need to talk. To make time to at least talk. Because if he isn't being the type of guy like we've all been describing, you need to know. Now.
I'd say the exact opposite of Ricochet. This is new behaviour for him, and it's only been going on for two weeks, and you've been going out for six years? It sounds like something is troubling him that he's too embarrassed or unwilling to talk about.
Time to maybe do some gentle prying and find out what's bothering him.
I agree that two weeks after six years really shouldn't put you at a place where you're just about to dump him. But I think the bigger issue here is why, after so long, she still feels so insecure about the relationship. Have they not made any real steps towards commitment? Because I would think that, and not this two week silence, would be the real issue.
I respectfully disagree with you nope. If I was with someone for six years and they didn't call me for two weeks, out of the blue, I'd feel pretty insecure about the relationship too.
Wow, I'm les and I think K sounds like an absolute jackass! I love my male buddies, but good gosh...
Finally, some Cait advice with which I can agree. I sincerely hope the outcome of it is favorable for LW 1. It certainly is hard enough to find a love that feels right these days.
LW2
Maybe it's like every romantic comedy where this happens and he is going to propose to you or do something huge that he doesn't want to mess up. I would wait it out, after 6 years there has to be some respect and trust when he says I love you. Also make sure he know that he can talk to you about anything and if he is having a problem you want to help.
This is not romantic comedy, its real life, the exact same thing happen to my roommate, only she didn't date this guy 6 years, but 10 years, only to see him in a gas station with another girl. I would tell this girl to trust her feelings, if she suspect that there is something wrong, that she may be right.
Totally agreed. My cheating alarm bells are going off like crazy. No one who loves you will just abandon you for two weeks - I've had a relationship last 8 years. Sounds like he's got the 7 year itch a bit early (which was one of the killers of my relationship)
If you parade around assuming he is cheating then things will definitely go into ruin. Instead, go get the answers from the person who actually knows them. That aside, two weeks is a long time. There's a reason for it, but it doesn't automatically mean he cheated. Find out what it is. Bring it up. Be direct and you should get a direct answer.
In the case of the first letter writer, that girl isn't a lesbian. That's just what her boyfriend and this girl have decided to tell her so she won't realize they are banging.
Seconded!
Thirded. I mean, she may have sex with women too, but she has had, and probably will again have, sex with the boyfriend.
Fourth here. This is disturbing. Run, LW1, run. This is completely bizarre and disrespectful.
So what makes you think K is a lesbian? That they both told you she was? That's what you're going on? I dunno. You boyfriend might just have two girlfriends, one who doesn't mind sharing him. He either puts her on the back burner or you move out. Ultimatum time. Don't get any deeper in this until you clear things up. And for the future, never, ever move in with a boyfriend when your time together in measured in months.
I am constantly amazed at how quickly people move in together. I think they view it as a convenience thing but really if you live with someone and you break up, it's almost as traumatic as a divorce. I personally wouldn't move in with a person I was seeing, unless I was fairly certain that I was going to marry him.
He clearly wants a threesome. Make it happen bitch.
to believe the first letter is even real. Who puts up with that sort of thing?
And it didn't end well for me. But people generally get what the deserve in the end. Ask questions: if things don't change, GTFO!
I did. Ended in divorce and months/years of therapy to get over the PTSD his emotional abuse left me with. RUUUUUNNNNNNN - there are PLENTY of men who will love and cherish ONLY you.
I did too. the girl would walk around my EX bf house in her underwear. And she wasnt a lesbian. they said they were 'like brother & sister'. i smelled the bullshit and when it was over, i realized a dodged a bullet- all of his subsequent gf's have had the same issue with her- their relationship is clingy and weird. Heir and spare syndrome is ON point with this one...Move out LW1 and move on.
One more thing: im now married to pretty great guy, who had a female friend who liked to call him at 3 am to pick her up from bars bc she was wasted, or if she needed money she would call him. he swears they never hooked up, he said he just takes care of her sometimes bc she doesnt have a man in her life. i made it real clear, he is My man and if she needs help, she can find another man to 'take care' of her. he respected my boundries and realized he was being taken advantage of. They no longer speak and Do not hang out. i didnt want to end their friendship, but i did need to let him know I was to be his main priority: i had just dealt with a jerk and his weirdo friend and wasnt going to deal with it again. Point is: if the man loves you, he will implement the kind of changes that You happy and correct the problem.
for what it's worth - several years ago, two of my best friends, a guy (J) and a girl (T), were in a relationship and living together. we also have a bunch of lesbians in our friend group, and one of them in particular would always grope the guy (J) and make sexual comments. T tended to be a little on the jealous side so i thought she was overreacting when she said to me, "that chick's not a lesbian and she's hitting on him." the lesbian friend had been with her (very butch) partner for like 10 years! and they had asked J to be their sperm donor for when they had kids.
S and J eventually broke up, over other issues ... a year later, the two lesbian broke up as well. and the inappropriate behavior one IMMEDIATELY started banging J. and has been, casually, ecer since. she told him she wants a relationship but he told her he'll only be friends who bone sometimes, so she settles for that. she's already on record as wanting his sperm, so he better watch it!
People who are blind with love are always willing to believe anything that they are told by their loved, or it is just easier to turn a blind eye.
LW1, even if K is a lesbian, that does not mean that she is automatically preempted from having a sexual attraction to a guy ... your guy. It is not unheard of for lesbians to have sex with men. Take a tour of the internet sometime; it's really not all that uncommon to hear from self-identified women who sleep with men on occasion.
Therefore, do not assume that K is automatically not a threat to your relationship. In fact, I think it is fair to say that she is a very potent threat. This is largely because your boyfriend, for one reason or another, is not establishing boundaries with her that allow for a distinct relationship with you. I suspect that the reason why he is not discouraging this behavior is because he (not so secretly) enjoys the attention. On some level that he does not want to verbalize, he's aware that he could "get it" with K if he wanted to.
You've got to figure out if it is ultimately in your best interest to continue a relationship with a guy who has the relationship equivalent of "an heir and a spare" at his disposal. I'll leave the ultimate answer to that question up to you, but think about this. A lot. The bottom line is this: if your boyfriend has not had the good sense to establish common sense boundaries with this woman up to this point, what is the likelihood that he will start now?
Good luck.
I mean, "self-identified lesbians" ... and the rest stands.
This. Been there, years ago. Lesbian or no, K is obviously jealous and is trying to run LW1 off - and the boyfriend is enjoying, consciously or unconsciously, having 2 women fight over him. This situation is probably NOT going to improve. Start looking for another place to live, now.
LW1- Whatever K is or isn't, you have a boyfriend who treats you like shit and allows his friends to do the same. Just move out. I promise you'll regret staying with him.
As a straight woman with a gay male best friend, I have some similarities and differences with LW1.
Similarities: We are pretty cuddly, as in snuggling-while-watching-movies cuddly. I wouldn't think anything of either of us seeing the other in various states of undress. We're very frank and open with each other. We just... click.
Differences: We were friends for years, not months, when he met the Love Of His Life (now his husband). When LOHL came on the scene, I realized how quickly my friend had fallen and gave them lots of space. He had the "no, I'm sure Ariane isn't interested in me" talk with LOHL, and I watched them for signals if any extra cuddly hugginess on my part was making LOHL uncomfortable.
Bottom line: I think Cait's advice is spot on. The situation *itself* is not necessarily the problem, but the way all of you are dealing with it is. Communicate. Relationships and boundaries evolve - they should evolve. My friendship changed when my best friend met his husband, and we, all three of us, are better for it.
hmm, never felt the need to strip down to underwear when going to my best friends house nor have my own closet space there. i wonder if LW1 mans male buddies also sit around naked when they come over :D
moving in after few months? best friends after few months? sperm and baby plans after few months?
So, if K gets a girlfriend, she'll be okay with you running around in your underwear and allowing new girlfriend to honk your boobies because you're straight? That's really ridiculous.
We all need boundaries or we whirl outta control. If he can't see how inappropriate this is now, imagine what behavior he'll be passing off as acceptable in five, ten, or twenty years.
I think you've allowed this to go on because of the age dynamic. It sounds like they are a few years older than you and you think that you will seem young and immature if you put your foot down. I can assure you this isn't how (real) grown ups of any age act towards people they love and respect. In fact, it sounds like you are quite a bit more mature than they are. Be confident and don't let them use your age to bully you into a situation you are uncomfortable with.
Ok, i'm calling "shenanigans" on Miss Information's advice to "The Other Woman." Talk about over-thinking things! LORD!
A few things I think she missed in her response:
1) Why, if you were feeling this way about "K" didn't you nip this in the bud when you agreed to move in with your boyfriend. If you and "K" met him around the same time, you had the PERFECT chance to say, "Honey, now that i've agreed to move with with you, i don't think its appropriate to have "K's" stuff here (Assuming she had a "drawer" before you moved in). If she had the drawer AFTER you moved in then, again, you can't bitch about it when you had the chance to stop it.
2) I don't know how many lesbian's Miss Information knows, or more directly, if her best friend is a lesbian (one of my best, best female friends is a lesbian) and YES, on more than one occasion she's come out of the shower and flashed her boobs and said, "Miss these at all?" ..she laughed and moved on to get dressed. I think Miss Information made alot of drama over this one. Clearly, "The Other Woman" is now at the point in her jealousy that things that USED to be funny and harmless are now being percieved as deliberate efforts to fuck up her relationship. BUNK! I mean, if it really pissed her off that much, why didn't "The Other Woman" reach over to her BF's crotch, and say, "You're right, but you can't touch this because you're a Lesbian" and then laugh!
3) Last point, why not offer to spend time with "K" alone? This should have been done a long time ago, and now she may not be able to put her personal perceptions behind her and get to know "K" but you know what? Isn't it better to discuss this as a FRIEND than be perceived as an adversary?
Re: Letter 1
Yikes! LW, you need to be proactive here. Take K's key on the pretext that you need it for a friend who is crashing with you for a couple of days and then make it understood to bf that K does not get the key back. Also, you either has to speak to K herself or enlist the bf to set the following ground rules: 2) If K is in front of bf, especially at his apartment, she needs to be clothed. 2) No more boob-honking or touching of any other intimate anatomy--hers or his. 3) K needs to back off with her remarks about gf's age. There are ways to put this nicely: "I know that it doesn't mean anything when you walk around naked/ say crass things about me, but it makes me uncomfortable, so please stop. If bf refuses to go along with this or allows K to continue with the behavior, then you need to break up with him, because it would mean that he cares more about K than about you.
Also, that talk about the sperm donation is fine if it's in jest, but even if it's not serious, you should mention to bf (preferably in front of K) that any potential baby-making with another woman, even sexless baby-making, is a decision that must be discussed with and agreed to by one's romantic partner. It is your business if your boyfriend is fathering a child. (What would custody agreements/ child support/ emotional support look like? What would it mean for your potential children to have a half-sibling? Etc.)
P.S. Make sure that you carve out some nonnegotiable time for you and your bf--no K, no exceptions. Make sure that your bf takes you on at least a few of these "dinner dates" with K. And don't hide from K when she comes over. Stay and chat with her. She's probably so frosty because she knows that she can chase you away and have your bf all to herself. Don't let her do that. Socialize with both of them--if she's going to be rude, make your boyfriend watch her do it. If he can see her being mean to you and he doen't stick up for you, that's a problem.
regarding the 'Dear other woman' post:
I have been reading your blog for a while (Miss. Robinson). You really killed it with this one. Great observations, evaluation, and it is well written. You gave me sound advice when I was in a shit situation and I hope this helps her as much.
-troll.
For LW1
I am a Lesbian and one of the most difficult things I have with dealing with my sexuality is having relationships and knowing where those lines are. It is often difficult for me to understand what some people find to be sexual when I don't feel that way at all. I just find that physical touch is a grounding point for my friendships, so with what you are saying I guess I could really emphasize with K. To be in a friendship with someone and have no risks of it getting sexual would be something that I would love to find. It would be a miracle to drop all my walls.
That being said, you need to speak to either your boyfriend or K. Your boyfriend needs to know that despite the fact that while being a lesbian lowers the risk of her lusting over him, it doesn't lower the risk of him lusting after her. She's still a girl and you don't appreciate him hanging out and touching the breasts of half naked women. Lesbians are still women, after all, with real boobs and everything. Your boyfriend doesn't grab his buddies junk, and if he did it wouldn't be okay because they are a bunch of strapping hetero men. If you wish to speak to K you could ask her how she'd feel if you hung out with her hypothetical lesbian girlfriend in just your underwear, or if you touched her boob and it was okay because your straight so it would never go anywhere. Doesn't matter. It isn't your place to touch her boob. She needs to find a way to deal with her issues in a way that doesn't mess with your relationships and he needs to not touch her boobs.
Oh, no, in this case, three is definitely a crowd. Without sounding completely defensive, tell your guy that her comments and walking around half naked are a sign of disrespect for you. (Not so sure she IS a lesbian.) Don't make him choose between you but I would let him know this is not acceptable behavior. Not to mention, are you two ever alone? If that doesn't work, go directly to her.
LW1 I doubt she is actually a lesbian in the sense you mean. I once had a "lesbian" female friend who I hung out with for a few months, we would go out to eat, and watch movies together, and hug at the end of the night, and maybe sit a little too close together, but absolutely nothing happened. I was really into her, but I was fine being friends with her and in no need or hurry to start anything since she was A) a lesbian, and B) had a long distance girlfriend.
Anyway I eventually got a girlfriend and started spending more time with her. Wouldn't you know my lesbian friend calls me after a few weeks of this sobbing and blathering, going on and on about how she loves me and how can I date someone else, and yada yada yada.
I was like "you have a girlfriend!?!" And she just completely demeaned that relationship and said it was nothing compared to what her and I had. I didn't know what to say or how to handle the situation (I wasn't breaking up with my new girlfriend to wade into this mess, so I mostly just cut off contact. Anyway don't believe what people tell you about who they are interested in. Go by their behavior not their words.
Now you say something