Miss Information
How do I show women I'm attracted to them without being creepy?
By Cait Robinson
Dear Miss Info,
I'm a mid-twenties straight guy in a big city. Growing up, I was doughy and acne-covered, super-duper-sweet, and insecure. Nobody wanted to date me. Now I'm hot and muscled, no acne, kind of intense, still a little insecure. Still nobody wants to date me! It's making me rather unhappy.
I'm a pretty interesting and socially aware dude, and I actually get a lot of positive attention from women nowadays. I don't grope women, whistle at them, pop my collar, act or look super "jock-y," or do any other obvious dealbreakers. I have female friends, regularly have normal non-sexual conversations with women, and smile frequently. Essentially I am totally not a creeper (and more modest and less douchey in person).
My problem is that women I'm interested in end up being so mean to me that it hurts my feelings. Sooner or later they run away or don't want to go out again or fail to show up or start ignoring me like a diseased homeless person. And I never understand why. I didn't do or say anything inappropriate! I just turned on the sex vibes.
So now the essential question: how the hell do I convey (without saying it, of course) that I am a tough, confident badass who is awesome in the sack and simultaneously a sweet, gentle protector who isn't going to hurt her and just wants to snuggle? And then, after lots and lots of rejection that doesn't match people's perception of me, how the hell do I still feel desirable and confident enough to dust myself off and do it over and over again? And then, because every woman is different, how do I tell how much of tough and tender to express for each circumstance?
— Hot, Intense, Possible Douche?
Dear Dear HIPD,
The good news is, I see no huge red flags in your letter. (Except "turn on the sex vibes." What does that mean? Is that like switching on the red light over your circular bed?) But here's my working theory: is it possible that your years as a dorky wallflower have followed you into a hot body? It seems like you're spending so much time analyzing each move that you're unable to just "be."
If you came of age as a highly perceptive, hovering guy in headgear, you might continue to see yourself that way, even now that you're fun and cute. So, when you get rejected in the present, it kicks you back to when you were at a sixth-grade dance, standing alone by the snack table and wondering how all the popular kids got their hair so shiny. So you assume that the problem must be you, and you assume — like many loners — that thinking and observing must be the way out of it. It's a trap, though — overthinking everything kept you in the corner as a kid, and it will continue to keep you removed as an adult. (Incidentally, there is no shame in this. Many fantastic adults were forged from periods of orthodontia.)
My point is, HIPD, analysis only gets you so far. You can't engineer yourself into the ideal man through careful calculations. In this case, your letter is so focused on yourself and your movements that I get very little sense of who these girls are. How are they all mean to you? Where are you meeting them? Try not to lose sight of the fact that any interaction is a fifty-fifty kind of deal, so if it is going down in flames, that's not necessarily a failure of yours. And if she's a jerk to you, that's her failing you, not the other way around.
In short, don't bother playing the lengthy chess-game you seem to have set out for yourself: "Am I too intense? Better counter it with aloofness. Oops, that was too sexual — better mention how much I enjoy commitment." Girls can pick up on that Jekyll-and-Hyde conversation, and many of them will walk away from it. It sounds like you've got a pretty good head on your shoulders — now just tell that head to shut the hell up. Behave in whatever way seems most authentic to you, and I think you'll find that you attract similarly authentic people.
Dear Miss Info,
Recently my girlfriend and I have been wanting to take our relationship to new levels sexually, and we are unsure how to proceed. I guess the logical next step would be anal play from both of us, but the idea makes me uncomfortable. On the one hand, I'm afraid it'll hurt her, and on the other, I don't know if I'm exactly comfortable with her sticking a finger in my ass. Do other people do these things? Is it normal? What are some other things we can try?
— Seeking New Frontiers
Dear Seeking New Frontiers,
Anal sex can be a big technical undertaking, not to mention physically stressful or painful if one or both partners aren't in the right mindset — and given your ambivalence, I'm not sure you're in the right mindset. It would be one thing if either you or she were exceptionally turned on by the concept, but if you're both approaching it from a sense of, "Well, I guess we should," then don't bother. If you are uncomfortable in any way, shape, or form, you aren't going to enjoy it. So drift away from that plan, and find kinks and experiences that do turn you on.
As for what people "normally" do — eh, there is no "normal." That is to say that "normal" equals "by committee," which equals "milquetoast and boring." Have a long conversation with your girlfriend: "So, what turns you on?" Start the dialogue and keep an open mind. You may have some swings and misses, but at least you'll be trying new things.
Overall, remember that there is no linearity to sex; nothing is "worth" more than anything else. The most advanced sex is not the most acrobatic or the most boundary-pushing, but rather the kind that is satisfying to both partners.
Comments ( 114 )
@Hot, Intense, Possible Douche?: Self-confidence: It has to be earned. Don't worry about rejection if you're just being Mr. Nice Guy. From my experience, women have their "mid-life crisis" in their mid-20's. To be fair, most guys in their mid-20's are immature and think they are amazing in the sack when they are not. (also from experience) I highly suggest dating a woman 10 years older than you and hope that she teaches you what a real woman wants. If you have an open mind you'll be humble enough to learn a few things and earn that clout. Good luck!
mid life crisis in there 20's?, of they're just fucking stupid?
Well, make up your mind!
I have
@Hot, Intense, Possible Douche?--Here's one I have used with surprising success: "Hello, You're a very attractive women and I'd love it if you'd let me get to know you" I find that if it works it works like a charm, but if it doesn't it bombs miserably. Be warned.
HIPD: If you suspect you're possibly a douche, chances are you at some point exhibit some level of douche to make women run away from you. Do you have any close female friends? Do you assume when in a dating relationship. I received only one piece of advice from my father regarding women, and it has served me pretty well to date. "Don't assume anything and always make sure that whatever you're doing is what the woman wants you to do."
Try that on for size, because I suspect that the "turn on the sex vibes" probably isn't serving you too well.
Yep, if any guy ever used the phrase "turning on the sex vibes" I'd probably run away too. The rest of his letter sounds okay though.
Well, what about when the girls do go for the douche? I.E Jersey Shore as an example. And why let the chicks off the hook so easily? Why not hold them accountable?
You know, it's just nice girls that go for the douche. I think they see it as a "danger" allure. But I'm kind of douchey, in that definition, and I still don't get ANY chicks. WTF?
Well, for starters your nickname, though anonymous, turns me off :-s You should have one like: Big heart and big penis.
Dude, stop with the douche crybaby act. Man up. Have a couple drinks, walk over, and JUST BE YOURSELF.
How profound.
Eggs-fucking-Zach-Lee. Don't do anything stupid. Don't be anything except for your-simple-ass-self. And, just in case you don't know, do NOT stare at the tatas.
Dude, tatas are fair game. Just be wearing your sunglasses when you're looking about. Oh - you meant HER tatas. Yeah, not a good plan.
Just be yourself? Really? Resorting to that cliche again? Oh yeah, that always works.
Well, it sounds like "the persona" hasn't done wonders for you, troll.
And what persona would that be?
Uh, the troll persona.
there's no guarantee that 'being yourself' will make everyone like you, but NOT being yourself WILL get you miserable in the long run... and honestly... if the goal is a committed relationship, then why waste the effort on someone who won't like you in the long run when your true self shows up? on the other hand if the goal is a one-night stand, then whatever. but in my experience playing a 'persona' really doesn't work, unless you're a very, very good actor (or she's really dumb).
also - seriously, there are assholes of the female persuasion too... so ease up on yourself. it's not necessarily you. move on to someone else. (there's nice girls out there, i swear)
HIPD, in these situations the problem is often not what you're doing, but who you're pursuing (hey! rhyme!). If all of these girls are so mean, why are you going after them? Is it that you have something in common, or do they just make you feel funny down there? If it's the latter, then consider stepping back and trying to get to know girls before chasing after them. If you're friends with a girl first and know her well, and know that she's not going to be a jerk to you, then maybe things will work out better than if you just lunge after random girls and then get upset when things don't work out.
"I have female friends, regularly have normal non-sexual conversations with women..."
So dear, tell me you have asked these female friends for their advice. They know you better than any of us possibly can. Perhaps the safest way to start is by referrals. Do any of your female friends have girlfriends you might be interested in? Start slow. Be your nice, charming self. Regain your "mojo". Then, if you don't find someone among this group, you can employ your new skills and confidence in dealing with your preferred type. Best of luck.
Great advice to SNF.
This column is so tired I want to buy it a week at Motel 6 in the extra dark room, are the questions you get really this pedestrian?
This comment is so tired I want to buy it a week at Motel 6 in the extra dark room, are all the comments you offer all this pedestrian?
That response is so tired blah blah blah
SNF: It's not the sex acts themselves that make sex non-routine. Even if one of you were really into the idea of anal, and you made it work, it would eventually just be another thing. Then what would you try? How kinky would you have to get before one of you admits being uncomfortable? It doesn't sound to me like either one of you is terribly excited about anal play, just can't think of anything better to do. The way out of this is to be more creative, not just in the sex itself, but in what leads up to it. Do something different before the sex, and it may not matter that the sex is the same as usual. (If you can't think of something different, try role-playing.)
If a guy can't get a date in this internet age, then there is no hope.
Tell me about it. 0% success rate.
Ah funny, someone used my name to make fun of me, if you only knew......
Dear GH, If you came to the column seeking the zenith of sexually deviant questions that need answering, your search does not end here. These questions may be rather pedestrian, but it is the prosaic problem that is often the most difficult to solve and also the most widely experienced.
It's sort of like picking up a book on parenting and saying "They're asking how to raise their kids? How fucking boring!"
Anyhow, to HIPD, chin up, and good luck.
HIPD might want to dial down the intensity. When it comes to the early courting period you wanna keep things light and fluffy. Too much intensity early on usually comes off as "dude with boundary issues" or worse.
It also makes women feel like you might not take rejection well which could be the reason why girls run away and disappear on you when you try to get things started.
I went through a period of coming off like Miss Psycho McOvershare for awhile. Part of the fix was getting comfortable with myself but the larger part was just committing to keeping things fun and making a joke whenever I let something too dark or serious slip. Try putting forth your happy and easygoing side.
What's wrong with being serious?
Nothing with your best friend or your therapist; but it is a terrible way to flirt.
OIC... perhaps that's why I have 0% success....
Dude...stop interacting with this column...talk to your non-sexually interested gf's (as someone else suggested)...stop the verbal handholding...and just go out and do it (or try the gay lifestyle, perhaps that'll work better for u!)
If you are a guy (still expected to make the first move), you must have a VERY thick skin. This is often what's not taught in our meritocratic society which says that everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed with hard work (even though that's false, but a whole different story). You may need to accept being rejected 1 MILLION times. On the other hand, your best friend, who you know is no different than you, may be fighting the babes off with a stick. There's no logic to it. Be strong. Get therapy if you need it. Masturbate. You'll survive.
Well, maybe if the freind fienden off with a stick was too send one of the babes to the freind in need..... Why is there no logic to it?
Haha looking back at that post, I was kind of drunk. Lesson there for you kids... don't comment and drink.
Reading HIPD's letter, I couldn't really tell what it is, on his part, that prevents him from dating. (I say "on his part" in recognition that dating is a two-way street.) I think he needs to talk to one or two of his closest female friends and ask for honest feedback, then accept that feedback graciously and work to change himself.
That said, a guy who describes himself as a Nice Guy, especially in the context of Nice-Guys-Never-Get-The-Girls, sends me running. More often than not, he's not actually nice, or he applies what is nice-to-men to women, or he has very stereotyped ideas about women. An actual nice guy doesn't need to say he's nice-- it's obvious. Actions speak louder than words. I'm not saying HIPD is necessarily doing this, or isn't actually nice, but it's what came to my mind in reading his letter.
"That said, a guy who describes himself as a Nice Guy, especially in the context of Nice-Guys-Never-Get-The-Girls, sends me running.... An actual nice guy doesn't need to say he's nice-- it's obvious. Actions speak louder than words."
So, so true!
No real red flags from this guys letter (regarding that, or anything else). My advice would be to maybe build things gradually with girls you like. i.e. don't switch from friendly directly to "sex vibes", but rather progress from friendly to casually flirty to to nice dinner (repeat variations of this) to sex vibes. Not only will it will make the girl feel more comfortable, but will also allow you to feel out her interest level (and create sweet, sweet anticipation).
Overall, just try to be confident and considerate - open the car door for her, think about her needs to do what you can to make her comfortable and happy, and expect good treatment in return. Good luck!
Yeah, well, if the girls stopped only going for a certain type or types of guys and would be a little more mature, then this wouldn't be a problem. Well, what about the type of guy who's actions show he' an asshole, and dumb chicks still fall for him?, all the while regular dude doesn't even get a chance? Yeah. Explain that one. And, guy or girl, I don't get this stigma against saying ones self is nice. Why is that so taboo all of a sudden? A person can say they are, and don't have to constantly prove it by doing all these actions etc.
Some girls go for jerky assholes. Some guys go for bitchy assholes. It's not a gender thing.
I've known plenty of women get rejected for being too nice and available ("Men only like the chase!" says the old cliche), but it would be idiotic to say "if the boys stopped only going for a certain type or types of girls and would be a little more mature, then this wouldn't be a problem." Some people (of both sexes) are screwed up and like jerks, it's just the human condition.
Yeah but, we're talking something specific here. Men are less likely to go for and fall for this shit. Guys would not put up with that shit from any chick. See, that's just it, men don't only like the chase. Alot of us do just want that one person and all that.
Also, I think guys are more open to dating different types, or "nice girls" than chicks are.
I mean, personally, I'm open to dating guys and girls. Personal preference, but the broad analogy (no pun intended) applies - but on second thought, guys are just more desperate to fuck than women are, so are willing to tolerate "nice girls". Hey, every "bad girl" was a nice girls once.
If you're going to insult me, at least be original. Guys are not more desperate. I don't see it as "nice girl" or "bad girl" per se, you're either good or not.
I'm confused.
how about you grow up and realize that that women are people. if they don't like you, you aren't going to magically convince them. people do exactly what they want to do. if you're not on a woman's "to do" list...no amount of mr. niceguy or douchebaggery is going to change that. conversely, if a chick digs you, you'd be surprised what you can get away with. bottom line is that you're barking up the wrong skirts. stop looking at women as "things to be convinced with your awesomeness" and start treating them they way you'd like to be treated...like a normal human being.
See, that's where you're wrong. I/we are grown up. We do treat them like people, but then even that backfires etc. Freindzoned, she's cunty/abitch, always going for assholes,etc. And what's a guy to do then? What's it mean when a guy has tried everything he could, and still nothing? Or he's not getting what he wants etc? Hmm? Well, what about the types who do convince women to magically liek them? Or that they keep choosing the wrong kind of guys? I'm not trying to convince anyone with my awesomeness, I'm not that type of person. Although, that does seem to work for many people, maybe I need to give that a shot. I mean, let's look at, and I know this isn't the best example, but an example nonetheless, Tucker Max. I can't stand the guy either, but hey, it's worked for him.
Or how about women grow up?, stop acting like kids, act like responsible adults/wives/mothers/etc.
Or maybe some people allowed to do what they want to do isn't such a good idea. "Surprised what you can get away with"? Who's trying to get away with what now? Or maybe in general, you need to not let anyone get away with anything from you. Treating them like a normal human being? Again, what about the Tucker Max's. Jersey Shore types, general douchebags and assholes, who this always works for? I'm not trying to play white knight savior or that these types are oh so big and bad or anything, just I think you're spouting off alot of bullshit.
Or maybe Im just cranky, and need to sleep. But again, why is it that women can get away with this, and men put up with it? Why do they like the bullshit bad types? Its back to Tucker Max douchebags. Maybe I'm jsut a Tucker Max.
Nah...guys have to make all the moves, do all the work, and they'd better make sure they make a stand-out impression in some fashion, or there's no 2nd date. If you just treat them like a human being, they treat you like another friend/acquaintance.
Though I do agree that with that 1 in 1,000 match, you can do very little other than be yourself, and everything you do will be right.
--Ken
HIPD, although I think internet dating is a waste (I've tried it), go online, find the heaviest, least attractive women that still sound interesting (personality, interests, etc) and that you think you'd be motivated to at least want to go for a first kiss, and do some training dates. And who knows, one of these women might turn out to be a great match. If not, maybe you'll learn some things by trial & error.
Like how to identify a "bear trap"? You wake up next to her in the spoon position and want to chew your arm off so you can leave rather than disturb her.
Question to you, Kevin, why does it have to be the "heaviest, least attractive woman". Not sure I understand your reasoning behind that. Because their egos are more fragile and they are more desperate to get kissed?
Maybe just because the LW would be less nervous and insecure?
"why does it have to be the "heaviest, least attractive woman". Not sure I understand your reasoning behind that. Because their egos are more fragile and they are more desperate to get kissed?"
Not at all. It's because web dating is a waste for men. Lots of articles and posts have been written on this topic. A man can make 100 personalized contacts, exchange several emails with some of those contacts, and ultimately get 1 date out of it. A complete waste of time. Meanwhile, women are receiving 100 messages per day. By picking the heaviest, least attractive women, you're picking women that may be receiving only 50 contacts per day. Or maybe 25 from decent guys, and 75 from crazy, undesirable men who just want to score a 1-night stand with anyone they can get. Your odds of a date are better. Since generally, your odds of a date are pretty poor, and require way too much effort of failed contacts.
Kevin
Makes sense.
This is the most aspergified subthread I have ever seen.
"NuckingFuts
Or how about women grow up?, stop acting like kids, act like responsible adults/wives/mothers/etc."
Madonna/Whore Complex much? I've found that's usually the case with guys who keep insisting on how nice they are.
I never said I was nice. Hell I'll say it, I have my, and sometimes even prefer, my asshole tendencies, cause that's how you don't lie to yourself, and avoid being lied too or bullshitted. Every guy has the madonna/whore complex, get used to it. I'm not so nice, unless I think you deserve it, other that,go fuck yourself,fuck off and die, and I don't give a fuck about you. Not my fucking problem.
^ That wasn't me. Someone else is using my name.
Fuck you, not funny.
Well, I'm a scientist, not a comedian. Lower your expectations and get back to me, OK?
Dating is often compared to job hunting. Most of the advice, with a few appropriate modifications, given to HIPD could just as easily apply to looking for work. But as someone who has neither a job nor a better half, I'm now doubly depressed.
"Nah...guys have to make all the moves, do all the work, and they'd better make sure they make a stand-out impression in some fashion, or there's no 2nd date. If you just treat them like a human being, they treat you like another friend/acquaintance.
Though I do agree that with that 1 in 1,000 match, you can do very little other than be yourself, and everything you do will be right."
Yup. Exactly. It's chick shit games right there. Yeah. Exactly. Don't be nice.
I didn't mean don't be nice. But I did mean that "be yourself" isn't the right advice. You need to make an impression on her, which means you need to be "up" and being at your most interesting A-game.
Well, what if you're not always on the a-game? Hmm? Why hold each other to such rigourous standards? don't we get a fucking break?
I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying that's the way it is. I agree with the other post below, women should try being active in dating, rather than passive. They'd learn a lot. But as long as they're going to remain passive & cowardly (probably forever), guys are going to have to overcome their anxiety, and bring their A game.
I'm getting some serious Nice Guy™ vibes from NuckingFuts, coupled with some yummy mysogynism. I hope someone is actually pretending to be him, because if he's really like that I feel bad for the women who have to deal with him.
Nope. Wrong on both. I never said I was nice, or mysogonist. I just have zero tolerance for bullshit.
Or, you just realize how and where I'm right, and you just don't want to admit it?
I think I see the problem. U'r either a wacko, INCREDIBLY insecure or just plain clueless. Worse of all: you're a whiner.
Go out with other guys who are confident and successful to be your wingman.
Otherwise, stop being overanalytical...get over it...and go out and keep trying.
Otherwise, don't try...don't date...don't marry and have kids -- and help the gene pool.
I find it interesting that the overwhelming majority of commenters didn't see any red flags in HIPD's letter.. I think he sounds kind of creepy. He also sounds extremely inexperienced, which probably adds to the creep-factor. It's hard for others to be comfortable with you when you're not comfortable with yourself. I think getting advice from your female friends is definitely a good first step. get more experience talking to people in general, and build your self-esteem. It's easier said than done, but being comfortable in social situations with ALL people will help you with the opposite sex. And stop overthinking things. It is cliche, but be yourself- you have to figure out who that is, though, and get comfortable with him.
No, you're the only delusional one here who finds him creepy. Simply because he's a guy who needs some help improving himself in that area. You're self deluding feminazi radar kicks in, and you try to make the guy out to be something he's not, simply cause he wants to get laid and do better with chicks, all the while you blow every penis that comes wagging your way. Well, if he's inexperienced, why not help him?
Also, funny you say be yourself, when you've probably fallen for those who aren't.
oohla: "It's hard for others to be comfortable with you when you're not comfortable with yourself."
HIPD may very well be quite comfortable with himself, with his family, with his friends, with his co-workers, etc...but still full of anxiety on a date. That doesn't make him a creep, or bad boyfriend material. Newsflash: All men (even the official "Pickup Artists") are uncomfortable approaching women. All that varies is how much, and how well they hide it. It's a shame women are cowardly, they'd learn a lot if they tried being active in dating, rather than being passive.
"He also sounds extremely inexperienced, which probably adds to the creep-factor." Yeah, so no pressure. If you're a fuck-up early on in the dating scene, you're pretty much screwed for good, huh?
"I think he sounds kind of creepy. He also sounds extremely inexperienced. . ." statements liek this are why many men are misogynists.
Dating/getting laid in America is a joke, period. When you get exposure to other countries/cultures through travel you'll be amazed at what you put up with for years...
Hmm, and I wonder why that is? Perhaps the traditional gender roles/morals?
@hankb, plese elaborate.
@ NuckingFuts: to be honest usually I seek better/more constructive things to do than entertain the endless why's & wherefores of the dating scene here in the States (other than to acknowledge isolated but wonderful oasis's like NYC, San Francisco, Austin, etc), including wether they involve traditional gender roles, morals or anything else (also see note to Scott below). That said I will attempt to answer your question. The problems in the dating world here seem to largely stem from the inborn sense of entitlement that Americans in general have. They also over think and analyze ~way~ too much instead of just ~enjoying~ what's tight in front of them. Relationships and sexual interactions are also fundamentally power based here (as in who's got it at any given time) rather than for just relating or good old (yes, old as it's been forever, probably since the 70's) fashioned fun sex for fun sex's sake. It's all become so tiresome and such a waste...
On a side note I would def try to lift yourself out of the victim role you seem to be in and to figure the life ~You~ want/how to go about getting it (it will never get better until then and certainly won't arrive on your doorstep on a silver platter. Life has taught me that ;). Fortunately it's a very big world out there and thank goodness it's not all centered (nearly as much as Americans would like to think) here in the US. Btw, I grew up here and, though not a 'America hater' by any stretch, have certainly reached my quota ;). People just know how to *Live* so much better in other places, I'll leave it at that..
@Scott; not to be cryptic but there's nothing to really elaborate on per seeing how much better people treat each other in the dating/relationship realm in the rest of the world other than to scrape up the dubloons, pick out your desired spot(s) and hit the road ;). If I didn't have a job I liked that also paid my bills I would never have come back from my first month long trip out of the country a few years ago. It's an isolated vacuum here in the US and in more ways than one. 'Youth is wasted on the young' couldn't be truer than it is here, esp when it comes to the fun we should be having together. I've lost count of the number of people who seemed to have 'Everything' and ended up living lives of quiet desperation or finding out what they wanted but alas too little, too late. Don't let circumstances dictate your life any more than they already will and get to steppin'...
Well hankb, I pretty much agree with almost everything you say. I will admit I need to get out more and get some more exposure, but certain feelings still remain, and there are certain truths I feel I can't or won't deny. I do tend over think and analyze alot, something I am working on trying to stop doing so much.
When did I ever say or cast myself as a victim?
I've been trying to figure out the life I've wanted to live for a long time and how to go about it, whole other issue right there in which I'm not going to get into right now. I don't expect it on a silver platter, but let's just say things have been alot different for me than others I feel, and what I expected. I never said nor ment to imply anything about you being an "America Hater".
SNF, if you're curious yet intimidated about anal play, which it seems you are, there are basically two rules: 1 - use plenty of lube. 2 - start slow. In that order. (Also: trim your nails, but I'm sure your girlfriend keeps you on top of that.) A great place to start is with yourself. Buy a package of latex gloves and get some quality alone time seeing if it feels good one finger at a time. Because it can, and it'll give you a better appreciation of what might work when you try it on your girlfriend. And maybe one of you will like it more than the other. But if you want to explore, then go ahead and explore.
Sounds like HIPD and the NuckingFuts clone are one and the same. Yes, HIPD, you are a douche, and what you call "intense" women call "insane". And no, not every guy has the Madonna/Whore Complex. The men who don't have it score nice, loving, passionate relationships.
Nope, we're not the samer person, but thanks for thinking so I guess. I think you guys get what I'm saying twisted. And yes, all guys do have the madonna/whore complex. How do you think we get nice,loving,passionate relationships with the right people?
Uh, no, only really screwed-up guys have a Madonna/whore complex. You know what that is, right? It means if you have an emotional relationship with a woman, you'll be using her as a replacement for your mother (Madonna), and will be unable to have sex with her. And women you are able to have sex with, you will be unable to develop feelings for them (they're whores). If you have a Madonna/whore complex, you're headed for a screwed-up, unhappy, lonely, unfulfilling life.
Oh, in all honesty, I thought it meant something different.
so much "Nice Guy" syndrome, both from HIPD and NuckingFuts...
guys.
if you're nice to a woman? that doesn't mean you deserve anything from her. Not being an asshole doesn't automatically get you a free ride. Get rid of that assumption and I think you'll both have better luck
I do not suffer from nice guy syndrome. I'm anything but. Oh sure, I believe in treating others with respect, deceny,kindness, I really do, provided they deserve it and aren't a terrible person. I never said being nice to anyone should get you a free ride. When did I ever say that? So, you're saying we should be assholes more? Cause that's what you like right? And yeah, I think being nice to someone,anyone, does mean you deserve something in return, otherwise what? Then that person is just using you.
So if we get rid of this false assumption you think we have, then what? What's your answer?
So what's your answer then Caitlin? What's your take? What kind of shit do you fall for?
And not that I am, but, what is this stigma against being nice and then expecting something in return? Not even sex, in general.
Nice people are nice because it's the right thing to do, not because they want something in return. If you're only being nice because you want something you're worse than a "user", you're a liar. People are generally put off by emotional blackmail.
I see what you're saying, but that's not what I meant. Well, is it so wrong to say that you wanted or expected something in return for anything? A favor for a favor? Not blackmailing or manipulation, just something in return. Not even sex, I mean in general. Well, as much as I am for being for the right thing to do, provided you aren't a naieve doormat, that's just it, I think being nice for the sake of being nice makes you a naieve doormat in many ways. I mean, as the saying goes, "nice guys finish last", once they grow that backbone better and become a bit of an asshole, well, we all know what happens next. Is a liar or lying really so bad? We all lie. Let's not get to up on the high horse shall we? I don't mean to come off as cynical or bad in any way, I'm just being honest. And plenty of people do something for others with expecting something in return, it's called making a deal. It's a big part of buisness(es) for example.
It is entirely possible to be a genuinely nice guy with a genuine backbone. Making a deal belongs in business, not friendship or dating. That's what separates boyfriend/girlfriend from john/prostitute.
It sounds like you're getting upset when you're "nice" to someone and what you get in return isn't what you wanted or expected. For example, being polite and friendly to your barista. You might want or expect her phone number, but what you get instead is the occasional free drink or extra whipped cream.
In some ways being nice to someone and expecting something in return means that you are in fact the one using them.
No no, that's not what I meant. Don't get it twisted. I hear what you're saying though. I'm only "nice" if said random person deserves it, otherwise, I will tell them to fuck off if need be. You really think deal making doesn't belong or have a place in freindship or dating? Wow. Someone's delusional/in denial.
I don't call anyone a barista, coffee-maker/restauraunt worker. No special titles.
Well, what about when you're honest about expecting something in return. Making a deal,etc. Don't you want honesty? Isn't that the best policy as they say? And no, I don't think being honest and making a deal is this manipulative/using people as you put it.
Lemme guess, you've had this shit happen to you, with both guys you've dated and "freinds", and well, it's had this effect on you that after you've sucked enough dicks, you've finally wisened up right?
HIPD, please, please, please realize that these chicks who are being mean to you don't deserve you. Moreso, don't let it get to you. The last thing anyone of either sex needs is another gamey douchebag who is trying to 'get even' with a random member of the opposite sex because they've been screwed over by the past 3. There are awesome girls out there...keep looking; you seem like a decent guy.
Stop trying to act how you think women want you to act, and attempt to act according to your own authentic feelings. If you feel like someone is being mean to you, don't sit there wondering how you can change yourself to please her; just get up and leave. Also: realize that dating is hard for EVERYONE, and that EVERYONE faces a ton of rejection when trying to date and mate. A lot of people used to be shy/doughy/acne covered. A lot of people have self esteem issues. A lot of people are insecure. By thinking you're the only one who feels like this, you give in to self pity, and you close yourself off from seeing these women as people, as equals. Also: if you are only going after the super high maintenance-looking girls, you're gonna get shot down a lot, because the kind of girl who puts that much effort into her appearance tends to be looking for a guy with equal looks/status, and you don't sound like that guy. (Even if you DO hit the gym constantly, you sound more introspective, so you aren't going to click with someone who only cares about appearance.) Try getting to know girls who might be cute, but are more on your level in terms of looks and personality.
I mostly agree overall with what you're saying, but, perhaps if people didn't care so much only about appearance......
If you dont' care so much about appearance, FuckignNuts, then I am sure that you would have absolutely no problem finding a relatively unattractive, overweight female with a wonderful personality. But you can't. Why? Because you yourself care enough about appearance to limit your "candidates" to those within your sphere of attraction. There's nothing wrong with this. It's just that, if you're shooting above your mark, then you're not going to have much success. I'm a pretty reasonable, attractive, successful guy, but I have zero chance of making it with Jennifer Aniston. I acknowledge that and try and work within the Venn diagram intersection of what I find attractive, and those that might find me attractive. This is the challenge of men (somewhat more so than women, I think) whom tend to be slightly more driven by appearance than other qualities. Just my thoughts. I also agree with everything that ss said.
See, that's where you're so,so wrong, about me, and about this topic. You firstly wrongly assume that when I say who cares about appearance, and you take it the wrong way. Anyone, guy or girl, who puts that much importance on appearance, there own or anyone elses', is an asshole, and shouldn't be encouraged. Mindless,materialist people pleasers is all they are. No guts or backbone. And why is it when someone makes a comment about there being too much important on appearance, you go with the default fat chick response? That's what feminazis do, trying to tell us something? And actually, I have seen many "fat chicks" I do find attractive, not morbidly obese, that goes beyond appearance, so don't even make it into that. I'm not shallow like you think I am. You say shooting above the mark as it if it's a bad thing. Not what I was actually saying, but your response is stupid. Jennifer Anniston isn't that hot or pretty to begin with. If anything, we need to stop stroking the egos of these "hot famous, or not, pretty girls", who get there ass kissed all the time. Don't be that guy. I, as I put it, as I say, see lots of pretty girls of all types. I'm not just saying that either. I actually look for more qualites beyond just looks believe it or not. But let's face it, the more attractive chicks are always gonna get shit over this, and you know what?, they deserve it.
Oh and I'm big on personality, "attractive" or not, if I think you're a bitch/cunt/asshole, then I think you're a bitch/cunt/asshole. You either treat me well, or you don't, and if you don't, I can give it back 10x harder.
Well, all I can say is that (i) I find Jennifer Aniston very attractive and desirable, and (ii) you're not having much success with your current plan. But anyways, stick to it, and good luck to you. You don't seem like someone that is flexible enough to adapt to new ideas that are outside of your experience boundaries.
Try killing with kindness, it's much more frustrating to the other person.
"Well, all I can say is that (i) I find Jennifer Aniston very attractive and desirable, and (ii) you're not having much success with your current plan. But anyways, stick to it, and good luck to you. You don't seem like someone that is flexible enough to adapt to new ideas that are outside of your experience boundaries."
I never said I didn't say she wasn't attractive, just not going to kiss her ass. Or maybe I did, anyways, I'm just fucking pissed all the time, what can I say?
HIPD- time to get a hobby, preferably one that takes up all of your time. After awhile, you'll forget about women and all the weird stuff they tend to do.
absolutely the best advice in this column.
How does that help him to reach his end goal?
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jtdZQb I decided to help and sent a post to the social bookmarks. I hope to raise it in popularity....
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