Miss Information: I Fell For An Older Woman
How do I convince her I'm serious, despite my youth?
By Cait Robinson
Have a question? Email . Letters may be edited for length, content, and clarity.
Dear Miss Info,
I'm a twenty-three-year-old man. After I came out of a fairly intense relationship last October, I've spent the last year exploring London and meeting lots of interesting people. I haven't really been looking for a relationship, but I'm not looking for casual sex, either — I mainly enjoy getting to know people better, and sex just happens to be a fairly awesome way to spend time with someone you like. Since October, I've been seeing two or three people at any one time. This had worked pretty well, and, as long as I'm honest and up-front about it (and I try to be), I didn't see any particular reason to feel guilty about it.
Then I met this fairly awesome woman. We seem able to be open with each other in ways that neither of us find possible with most of the other people in our lives. The issue is, she's thirty-one. I'm totally fine with this. But she's only ever had relationships with older men, and, while she does like me, I think she feels a little bit guilty for "taking advantage of a youth." She also wonders whether this is sensible long-term, and whether she shouldn't be finding someone to settle down with.
The other thing is that, up until now, her dating life has been almost entirely long-term relationships. She doesn't "do" casual sex, and finds my recent approach to dating slightly bizarre, if not downright deviant.
I do like her and would be quite willing to move into something more serious and exclusive eventually. (We're not there yet, but I can see that happening.) So what can I do to ease her doubts about my age, and her worries that she's just "another name on my list," without making things too heavy in the short term while we get to know each other better?
— Totally Over Younger Booty Only, Yucks
Dear TOYBOY,
I love the acronym, and love even more that the best "y" word you could come up with was "yucks." I'm additionally going to interpret "yucks" as "old-tyme lolz," which I think brings a vaudeville quality to this letter. Kid, you'll be a star!
I may sound like a vulgar Hallmark card here, but seriously: age ain't shit. When you say "I'm twenty-three," a person files you in their mental folder marked "twenty-three." They compare you, then, to themselves at twenty-three, their bratty brother, their out-on-bail cousin, or their little sister. They make a whole set of assumptions about how you must understand the world and how prepared you must be to make a commitment.
Of course, these assumptions aren't necessarily accurate: one twenty-three-year-old may possess the gravitas of George Clooney, while another may smash beer cans on his forehead. She probably fears that you're in a place where you want to push boundaries and screw around — those wild oats, you know — and she's afraid of getting hurt. So age is an easy shorthand, a way for her to discount your preparedness and make herself feel better. If things go downhill, she can say, "Well, I should have known better than to rob that cradle."
As she gets to know you, though, she'll start replacing those age stereotypes with actual facts about you, and age should become less of an issue. The "seeing other people" part is tricky, because, in the early days of any relationship — until you say otherwise — it's generally assumed that either party could be dating around. If you want to reassure her, make sure she feels like a priority. If she's still uncomfortable with you seeing other girls, as the relationship progresses, you can adjust. But in the short term, show her you care the way you would show anyone: make an effort to see her and let her know how much you enjoy spending time together.
Ultimately, every relationship is going to have that awkward stage where both parties size each other up: "Is he too tall?" "Is she too talkative?" "Oh God, is that a Scientology decoder ring?" This is no different. All in all, I think you're on the right track. Just give it some time to see how things shake out.
Dear Miss Information,
I adore my boyfriend. We have heaps of fun together, support and love each other, get along with each other's families, and are wonderfully GGG. I'm twenty-six and he's thirty-four. We've been together for two-and-a-half years and I thought we were ready to move in together. Last year, he was kind enough to let both me and my roommate stay with him while we looked for an apartment. We called it our "trial run" and it went great. Now, my lease is about to be up on my apartment, and we have some decisions to make.
I had just assumed we'd move in together when my lease was up, but he's having second thoughts. He thinks it's too soon and he likes his space and he wants to just go with the flow and take it easy, la la la. He says we've got our whole lives, so why rush into anything?
I, however, am sort of an anxious person. I'm the one with the lease, I'm the one who'll have to find another apartment, I'm the one with a roommate/BFF to take into consideration. I feel like my lease ending is a deadline, and I keep thinking, "If he's not ready now, how do I know he'll be?" I've told him all this and he's been as supportive as he can, but I still feel crappy. And I can't keep obsessing and feeling shitty and rejected over this, because that's not helping anyone. So where's the line between putting pressure on him and asserting what I need? Am I overreacting?
— Frustrated and Feeling Stupid
Dear Frustrated and Feeling Stupid,
Moving brings the crazies out in full force. The last time I moved, I spent two weeks word-vomiting to strangers, braiding my hair while humming to myself on the subway, and buying Doritos in bulk. I don't even eat Doritos normally. Am I proud? No. But it happened and we need to move on.
My point is that the stress of moving affects everything in your life, no matter how minor. You can hardly be blamed for feeling rejected and hurt. But I think that if your boyfriend says he's not ready, you should pay attention. Moving in together prematurely can cause the kind of relationship meltdown that requires a U-Haul to remedy. It's a big step, and if he has even slight misgivings about it, give him his space. Forcing the issue would only intensify stress for both of you.
You already have a BFF and built-in roommate, so it seems like you have the best possible Plan B in place. Throw yourself into finding a place that you both love, with the understanding that you might not be there for the duration of the lease. Once your immediate living crisis is taken care of, you will be in a stable place to re-evaluate the situation with your boyfriend. Maybe you can set a time limit, and agree to revisit the issue in six months or a year. But for now, I would recommend drawing a clear separation between "moving stress" and "relationship." Otherwise you may wake up one morning fully-dressed in a bed full of chips, and wonder where it all went wrong. Hypothetically.
Commentarium (48 Comments)
The "seeing other people" part is tricky, because, in the early days of any relationship — until you say otherwise — it's generally assumed that either party could be dating around.
Um, FYI, and just because the chap said he's in London--that's not the usual assumption in the UK. Unless specifically stated, it's assumed that people stop sleeping around when they meet someone they like, see if they want to turn it into something, and then move on if not. It's more serial than the impression I get from the US (though I may be wrong, I haven't dated in the US).
It sounds like this guy is doing what I've been for the past year or so, and been honest about having multiple partners, which people are generally okay with--but because it's not the usual pattern people see anyone sleeping around as a bit skittish and not ready for commitment. That could be contributing to his friend's worry, too.
Yeah, the US concept of 'dating' as an accepted period of sleeping with several people without being in a relationship with any of them doesn't really translate. In the UK you're expected to tie up any sexual loose ends pretty quickly if you get into a pre-couple situation. (Or at least pretend they're all tied up!)
I live in the U.S., and I think the idea that it's okay to sleep with other people when you're "just dating" is actually specific only to hooksexup.com. I do not understand how anyone can say, "I like Person A, I want to get to know them better, and I can see a future with them...but in the meantime I'm going to also be fucking Person B and Person C purely for the reason that I can." My two cents would be, Letter Writer #1 should wait until he's ready to stop sleeping with other women before he tries to convince the woman he's serious. Because if you're still sleeping around with other women, you're *not* ready to be serious.
Man! This dating thing sounds like so much effort! Now, where's that monastery...?
Man! This dating thing sounds like so much effort! Now, where's that monastery...?
Really? Do you not get that different people have different styles of dating?
Just because someone isn't porking several special people doesn't mean squat.
Besides, I think nan raises an interesting point.
Maybe the woman sees his sexual liberation approach as not quite serious.
Serious implies exclusivity, *generally* speaking, so maybe she's just assuming he's not ready for a relationship because he's not done sowing his oats..
Agreed agreed agreed. Toyboy, if you want her to take you more seriously, stop seeing/sleeping with other people.
It's fine to do if you're being honest, but in London it is not the average or norm. Bee puts it best - if you like her, then it is assumed that your sexual loose ends are tied up. It is this that is making her think that you are particularly 23-ish.
Is the whole dating loads of people thing really the norm in the US? I get the impression it is in New York, but what about the rest of the country?
@mc and all: Good points about cultural perceptions! And thanks for chiming in.
My impression is that in some circles there is this "dating" thing, but in a lot of circles there is just a lot of desire for it, without much actual action.
Where I am from (a big city in middle America) my life went like this .
~7 Serial 1-2 year relationships from HS-college (this seems a bit abnormal, most people are single in there somewhere)
Then I had a 2 year period of "dating" where in that 2 years I probably went on a total of two dozen dates with maybe 5 total girls, and slept with three of them, but the different mini-relationships were pretty far apart in time.
Then I met another girl, and we hit it off great, and within a few weeks we were pretty sure we would marry. THen 2 year slater we got married. Now 3 years later we are still married and things are great.
Anyway that is one experience I think is not atypical. Particularly the part where I was "dating" (although the mode is probably that it happens more at age 18-24 instead of 24-26).
Here's why the age thing might actually matter a lot: suppose the older woman wants to have children. By the time her boytoy decides to commit to her, it might be getting pretty late for her. The reason women tend towards older men is that their reproductive potential matches up. Most 23 year old men don't feel ready to have a baby - now would you say that's an unfair assumption to make, based on his age.
Of course, if she doesn't care about having kids, age is much more of (just a) number and much less of a (slightly frightening) reality. But that's the sort of thing that might not occur to a freewheeling 23 year old to ask.
I like that the age difference is precisely the same in the second letter. While OMG's point is important and well taken, an eight year gap might feel less pronounced once toyboy is 25 or 26.
Of course, there are exceptions and not every 23-year-old "acts his age", but I think the woman in L1 is being smart and realistic in her skeptical approach to the LW. As I said, exceptions exist, but the fact is that *most* 23-year-old boys act like... well, 23-year-old-boys. That aside, this particular guy's actions aren't exactly indicating that he's more mature than most guys his age and is capable of and ready for a serious, committed relationship. It sounds like it's still early, but if you give it a few more weeks and still really like her, then your behavior should reflect that. Actions speak louder than words. If you don't want her to think she's "just another name on your list", then don't make her just another name on your list - stop messing around with other people at least temporarily to figure out if you really want only her. You owe it to both her and yourself to figure out what you want.
As for her worries about "taking advantage of a youth", she may feel like you still have a lot of things to experience in life before settling down into a more serious, long-term relationship, and that it would be unfair to ask you to sacrifice all of that to be with her. Even if you don't feel like you'd miss out, she may worry that you'll wake up one day at 35 feeling otherwise, and resent her for getting in the way (maybe so much that you'd leave).
This may be speculative, but that would probably be some of the things I would think if I were in her shoes. Also, as someone else said, if she wants kids, that's a whole other issue in itself.
I don't think it's hopeless, but I do think the woman's reservations are real issues worthy of deeper consideration by the LW.
I agree... his dating behavior is probably a serious turnoff to her. He can say that he might be willing to settle down with her in the long run, but he should make his actions reflect that--the words are nice, but until your behavior matches them, they're really just a bunch of hot air. You can make it obvious to her that you're serious about this without things getting "too heavy". As a matter of fact, "too heavy" to you might be "Ok, so he's *not* actually full of shit!" to her.
And as a 26 year-old woman who recently turned down a 22 y-o boy (yes, he was still a boy)... men and women really do mature at different rates, and while there's always exceptions, most young men of that age still act like absurd scrote-heads.
Great image for the article, douches.
seriously what the fuck
I thought it was hilarious
I'm a twenty-eight year old woman in a long-term relationship with a twenty-four year old man. We met when he was twenty-one and I wasr twenty-five. When I first met him, I didn't really see him as anything but a younger guy, but as we became friends, I realized he was very strong, serious and mature - I don't say for his age, just in general - and I started to be attracted to him, but always assumed he'd never be interested, in large part because of the age difference. But by the time we started a relationship (at 23 and 27) age had largely become irrelevant. We'd been friends for years, we're both at the almost the exact same point in our educations, have similar life-goals, and while I'm slightly more conscious of my body-clock and childbearing years than he is, we both agree that children are something for the future...and not even the very near future. I think that age doesn't really matter that much, but you have to be on the same page. If Toyboy is still playing the field and his older woman is only wanting serious relationships that would be a pretty serious gap, in my opinion, just as it would be if he were 35 and she were 32, or 24 and 24 or 26 and 30. Age doesn't really matter, but mindselt does.
The 'older' woman is probably afraid of getting serious with him because he uses the word 'awesome' too much.
The second letter - I cant imagine for one second even wanting to move in with someone who is having second thoughts! Find some self-esteem for christs sake.
For Frustrated: You've been dating 2 1/2 years, and he's not ready to move in together (or, presumably, get engaged or married)? What is he -- and more importantly you -- waiting for? Unless there is some immediate crisis in his life -- illness (his or a family member's), financial problems, the need to be able to move to another city, etc. -- there's nothing he or you is going to learn in the next six months or year. If he's not ready to commit further at 34, why will 35 be any different? Now, maybe 40 will be a magic number -- or not. Do you want to wait around until then? If you answer "yes," that's a completely legitimate position to take. But if you want to live with your boyfriend/fiance/husband, and particularly if you want to have children at some point, you need to have a very candid conversation with this guy, find out what his long-term goals are and see if they are consistent with yours. (If he has none, or if they are vague and indefinite "we'll see how it goes" type of thing, you have your answer.) If they are not consistent, as hard as it will be, end it, mourn, recover and in a few months be available to someone who wants the same things as you.
I agree with profrobert- it isn't as if you have only been dating 6 months and still need some time to make sure you are committed to being in a long term relationship. You're already in one! If you have been dating for 2.5 years and he still isn't ready to move in together, I think this could potentially be detrimental to your relationship. I know that each person moves at their own pace and some need more time than others, but at your age and for the amount of time you have been together (you two are both adults, not kids still finding their place in life), if your boyfriend still isn't ready, it might be a sign that he has commitment issues (maybe not with dating, but with other things like marriage, kids, etc). If you don't want to get married or have kids then I guess it isn't too big of a deal. However, if you would like to further your relationship, I would ask him about why he isn't ready. Don't just accept the answer, "I need more time." Though that may be a valid answer, find out why and make sure you can accept it. If not, it may be time to take a step back and decide if the relationship is worth continuing.
Playing devil's advocate here: why is 2.5 years material? That's your timeline. I work with a woman who is Swedish, and we have talked about social expectations for couples, as she does not understand why (as she puts it) "Americans need to put a timeline on everything." I'm kind of with her there. If the relationship is going well otherwise, and both people are getting what they want, then there is no problem. The most important statement she made was "I just assumed..." Well, there's your problem. You didn't ask him at first, you assumed, and now it's backfiring. The point is that she's not getting what she wants, but she also didn't communicate it clearly; she just assumed.
I absolutely-but respectfully-disagree with C6 and profrobert. Why is it assumed that not wanting to move in together is symptomatic of an unhealthy relationship? Enjoying your own space and independence characterizes a healthy LTR, at least to me. Living with my boyfriend would be the last thing I'd want to do.
LW, you received good advice from Cait here---respect your boyfriend's point of view and work on the roots of your own anxiety.
There's nothing wrong with having separate abodes, if that's what the parties want. I know a couple who has a commuter marriage, and it works; I know a triad that has a polymarriage under one roof, and it works. Anything people can agree on is fine. But the writer seems to want something different -- to live together -- than does her boyfriend. That's the root of the problem, and I think his desire -- to live separately -- is unlikely to change in another six months or year. I don't think their current arrangement is "bad" in an absolute sense; I'm concerned that it'll be bad for her based on her life goals.
LW1, don't worry about the ages. Doesn't mean much. Worry about whether you should drop other people to see this woman exclusively at this point. I wouldn't automatically do it. One of the best pieces of relationship advice I ever got was to never be involved with just one woman ... until things get truly serious with one of them. If you're still in a fairly early nonserious stage with a woman and you decide to foresake all others for her, she will flake out on you. When she decides she pissed at you for whatever reasons or nonreasons that enter her mind, when she decides that she likes having control over you, when she consciously or unconsciously pulls away because things are getting too serious, when she does any number of jerky things ... you're screwed. All you have is her, and she's jerking you around. If you have at least one other woman you're seeing, you have back-ups, you have someone you can actually be with while Woman A is withholding her presence from you. When Woman B flakes out on you, you have Woman A or Woman C. Don't ditch the others and commit to any one until SHE proves she's worthy of it.
Same advice applies to women. And gays and lesbians. It's universal, people.
I think "Frustrated" needs to take two things into account in making her decision. One is their ages. He's 34. And he's been dating you for 2 and half years. I have to point out one thing that everybody isn't (for both letters), that 2 and half years to a 34 year old isn't the same span of time as to a 26 year old. To a 26 year old, IT'S A REALLY LONG TIME. To a 34 year old, not so much.
That said, if he isn't ready for the test drive at 34, don't count on it next year, or the year after that. This guy isn't thinking long term anything. And if you are, it's best if you lay your cards on the table, tell him you accept his desire, but it isn't in your plans.
And chalk it up as a valuable, but emotionally expensive lesson.
"Oh God, is that a Scientology decoder ring?" is the best thing I've read in a long time. Thanks, Miss Information!
All the people making comments about kids, biological clocks, etc. are spot on (for both letters) . I love Hooksexup (and Miss Info), but this site often times feels like it's too sophisticated for the kids part of the equation. And while the woman's biological clock is often given it's due, what's rarely discussed is the "old dad in the playground." I'm 37 with a 3 year old and a 1 year old, and I can speak from experience. I see lots of dads in their late 40's at the playground, and I'd hate to be them (sometimes, I actually wish I'd had kids a couple years earlier). You see, us guys are taught that we can have kids pretty much right up to our death bed, so our "biological clock" isn't an issue. That's just not true though. While it can be fun to drag your 20's single life into your 30's and 40's, you have to ask yourself if you want to be 48 and spending your entire Sunday hanging with Thomas the Tank Engine (like I did yesterday)? Do you want to be 68 and still paying for college? I know this comment is a bit off track, but it's still something to think about (especially for someone like Frustrated's guy).
I agree completely - I am 35 with a 5 year old and a 3 year old. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it would be dealing with very small children when I am in my 40's.
Being 48 with an almost-three-year-old is exhausting, and I wish I had sorted out my life and met my wife a decade or more earlier, but I didn't (and honestly, if we'd somehow met a decade earlier, we wouldn't have liked each other!). But I'd much rather this than not have my son, who is the most amazing, wonderful thing in the world to me. And @Dave1976, I'd love to have spent my Sunday hanging out with Thomas and Friends, or at the In the Night Garden Show, or anything else that brings joy to my son. (And I enjoy it not just because it makes him happy; I get to see all the wonders of the world through his eyes, and that brings me back to the best parts of my childhood.)
profrobert, my post wasn't meant to say that 48 year-olds don't enjoy their kids. Really, all I meant is that kids are fucking tiring (no matter how much we love them)...and I couldn't imaging starting out this process 10 or fifteen years from now. Yesterday, I loved spending 4 hours with classic trains, riding Thomas (not the gay porn), and topping it off with a meal at a wild west themed restaurant. There's no sarcasm or irony in that sentence (apart from the gay porn).
But I also passed out at 9:30, slept late until 7:40, was late to work...and again, I couldn't imagine going through this 10 or 15 years down the road.
You also have two, which is four times the work, I gather. You're right; it's all my wife and I can do to wrangle one. As for 10 years down the road, you don't think you're going to be throwing spirals or hitting fungoes or blocking soccer balls? ;-) That's actually what worries me -- keeping up with my teenager in my late 50s!
Timing is everything. ToyBoy, you are not yet ready to settle down and commit to one person. If you were ready, you would be doing it. Being ready and being "almost ready" may seem like neighbors to you, but they are actually different continents. You are saying that you can see Russia from your backyard; this woman is telling you that you're still in Alaska. You honestly have no idea how long it will be before you are truly ready - you're saying "soon", but you don't know how long it will be; you're just stalling for time, my friend. It will be however long it is until you wake up next to a stranger and feel bored. It will be however long it is until you have a great first date with an interesting person and feel dissatisfied, because your craving for intimacy is so enormous. It will be until you meet an "awesome" woman and instead of wondering how you can keep her while still sleeping around, you will just instinctively do all you can to keep her, because you will feel that true connections are rare and precious. It is impossible to predict how long it will take you to travel to this place; one day you'll simply wake up and realize that you're there. This woman is looking for someone who is already there. She's in Russia. You can't date her from Alaska.
toyboy, duh, you could simply stop dating the casual others (since they are just casual others) and give the "awesome" one a chance. That's the sort of thing that will show her you are mature and are interested in her enough to see where it goes.
If it works, great, if not then you can go back to the casual dating around.
BUT if you can't see that as a solution for yourself without asking a website, then she may be very right and you are too immature to be ready for her.
Thanks all and apologies for over-using 'awesome' - point taken.
And (further) apologies for not really being clear, when I said - 'move into something more exclusive eventually' - I meant, "eventually" as in a month or two when we've seen each other more than a couple of times
(I sent this original email off to Hooksexup as part of a process of thinking my way round the concept and putting my thoughts down in words in order to have a clearer sense of what I was actually thinking at the time - which was really useful in of itself)
rather than in a: 'I'm committed to having sex with as many people as I can over the next year, but eventually in a year's time I might re-consider' way, it was always my intention, if things went well, to settle down with her.
As such, we've now (since I wrote this back in July) moved into an exclusive relationship which seems to be working fairly well.
And another thing, for various reasons that are robust but complicated (so I won't go into more detail) she doesn't have any desire for kids in the next couple of years. We had that conversation fairly early. (unsurprisingly, the prospect of incipient paternity doesn't fill me with joy).
One follow up if I may, for any of you who may have had significant age differentials in a relationship, what were the practical issues that you found difficult, and did anything cause an issue that you weren't expecting?
I'm 21 and my boyfriend is 26 which causes some problems because I'm still in school and he is already in the "business" world working a full time, steady income job that has caused him to move 5 hours away . We are currently in a long distance relationship (which I was not expecting to happen when we started dating) which has its difficulties and at times I worry because we are at 2 completely different points in our lives (education/work related) but so far we've been making it work. Because he has already been through his early 20s and has more experience, he is more confident in what/who (being me) he wants in life, whereas I am still trying to figure it all out. Though I know what I want now, the next few years ahead of me are going to be quite influential and possibly life changing (finishing school, studying abroad, etc) so at times I second guess myself or discredit myself because at this point I don't think I can say for sure what I want for the rest of my life.
I am in the US and agree with Nan. I am not sure what the cultural norms are elsewhere but the US has some pretty deviant dating practices these days. That said, I am a (young & healthy) 47 year old woman who has been seeing a very mature 30 year old for a year and a half. We signed up for the common "Friends with Benefits" package which seemed sensible to me at the time as I was fairly recently divorced. I was worried that he might get attached, fall in love, whatever, and I stated my position up front. In the end, he didn't become emotionally involved, I did, and since we truly had a rare and wonderful compatibility seldom seen in life (I know this, but he doesn't) I suggested we try it out for another year and see where it goes......open to the possibilities. Everything about our relationship has been great, we have a wonderful friendship, great fun, awesome sex, good communication, and our families all love each other. We have a year and a half of spending half weeks together (4 days a week).....everything from family events and ordinary tasks to vacations, and steamy nights in the mountains. I shared more intimacy with him than I did in 18 years of marriage. He is a great guy, faithful, dependable, kind. We "flow." He bailed. He is off looking for new "Friends with benefits" arrangements now. I am left completely confused and devastated. Why would a person just walk away from such a truly great thing? When I asked him, he said "I really don't know. I'm just not looking for that right now." OKAY....but he FOUND it.......just like I did. Looking or not. Any insight greatly appreciated???
I can't be sure of course, but it sounds like he's looking for FWB, while what you're describing is "serious boyfriend and girlfriend." When I was doing the FWB thing, it was anywhere from once a week to once a quarter, and it was never exclusive (it would be pretty hard to be seeing other people if you're spending four nights a week together). He may also have sensed that you want "more," and been uncomfortable with that. The "truly great thing" he walked away from may have been that for you, but not for him. That doesn't make one of you right and the other wrong; it just means you want different things, and that's legitimate, even if it hurts like hell. For what it's worth, though, you sound like someone who is open and willing to risk connection and commitment. Don't lose that because of this bad experience. There is going to be another great guy coming down the pike if you remain open, and this time he'll want the same things as you. Good luck.
@LAP: I love this! We do put timelines on everything, because, in general, we tend to be a very end-goal-oriented country. Back to the "cultural perceptions" well. Look at how educational this whole comments section is getting.
@LAP: I love this! You're right: I think there is often an anxiety about doing things "correctly" or "expediently," with an eye on your neighbor as a guideline. Again with the "cultural perceptions" thread. Look at how educational this comment section is.
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