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o those who hold nothing sacred, John Waters is God. You can call his films — Pink Flamingos, Desperate Living, Hairspray, Serial Mom, Pecker, Cecil B. DeMented — "trashy," "raunchy" or "kitschy," but many of them shattered at least one giant taboo, and all deflated heinous clichés at appropriate cultural moments.

Thirty-two years after Pink Flamingos introduced audiences to incest-fellatio punchlines, simulated sex with chickens and the consumption of animal byproducts that generally remain unconsumed, Waters returns to filthy form with A Dirty Shame. Sylvia Stickles (Tracy Ullman) is a Baltimore convenience store clerk who keeps her hugely endowed daughter locked up (lest she resume her exotic-dancing career under the name Ursula Udders) and her husband sexually unsatisfied. After a head injury renders her an insatiable "cunnilingus bottom," Sylvia is adopted by a tribe of sex addicts (including Fat Fuck Frank and Ronnie the Rimmer, and led by master oralist Ray-Ray, played by Johnny Knoxville) who are intent on discovering a new sexual act. As Sylvia and the Sex Addicts run wild, the sex-negative Neuters mobilize to regain control of their neighborhood, with nothing less than moral propriety at stake.

If all this sounds like an outtake from 2,000 Maniacs! crossed with Nude on the Moon and an early John Waters film, that's what it is. We spoke to Waters about his continued relevance, reality TV, Paris Hilton and the election-year metaphor (or lack thereof) in A Dirty Shame. — Michael Martin

With Pink Flamingos, you set a couple of unique bars for sexual content in film. Why go back? What's the point?

Go back? When was I ever gone? I think this is the only movie I've done where the main subject is sex. Pink Flamingos was about a battle to determine the filthiest people alive. It wasn't a battle to see who was sexy. It wasn't about sex. It showed that Divine's family was kind of happy and fucked-up in the head, and everybody left them alone. They mostly had angry sex because they just could never do it normal. So I don't know if I went back to sex. Certainly it's the first movie I ever made that would be about sex.



How does the cinematic and cultural environment that greeted Pink Flamingos compare to now? We're more jaded, but the powers that be are still Neuters.

I made Pink Flamingos for the jaded hippie audience the year pornography became legal — 1972 was really the end of the '60s. Basically after Woodstock, Altamont and all that, all the hippies had turned into drug addicts, and Deep Throat was released. That was a radical time too. It was a joke, really, to make a movie with a woman eating shit and doing all the things that, even to hippies, were not correct. Pink Flamingos was for angry hippies who later became punks. A Dirty Shame is the only time I've made a movie about sex. Before, you could never make it because of AIDS. I very radically believe that AIDS is not over; I know a lot of people who have AIDS. I was very conscious of the fact that you can't get AIDS from any of the sex acts in this movie. I mean, I guess, radically, you can get it from cunnilingus without a dental dam. Nothing is a hundred percent, but I'm alive. I know my rules, and cunnilingus is not exactly my main forte, but I made a movie about it because that was always the joke in old sexploitation movies: what is the man doing offscreen? Making love to her?



Around the time of Pecker, you responded to the suggestion that your movies had become softer: "It's 1998, not the '60s when there was a cultural war going on. Now I'm rooting for the President to get blowjobs." First, do you have similar hopes for this president?

I think he should give 'em! Or something, not just get them. It's unfair. It has to be a trade. Basically, I'm all for presidents having sex. They'll be happier, less hostile.



Second, what's your impression of the latest cultural war?

Me being rated NC-17 is a new kind of censorship. There's a new kind of weirdness; there's definitely a cultural war going on now. And there's actually a war — not just a cultural one, a real war! And I'm so excited about this election. It's going to be a complete tie. It will come down to one vote, and then there'll be anarchy. No one's giving in this time.



Did that censorious climate affect the making of the film?

Hmm. Well, I don't know if it was in the film. Selma Blair said that if Clinton were president we wouldn't have gotten an NC-17. I don't know if that's true, but she may have a point. Those Iraqi pictures, too, I think had a lot to do with it. Lynndie England is from Maryland, too! So whatever. When I sit down to write a script, I don't say, "I want to tell this particular story because of what's going on." It's never that calculated. There's no connection with anything at all. I remember the same people who were shocked that Hairspray got a PG rating were shocked this one got an NC-17.



Does the NC-17 rating bother you?

I think the ratings board was fair with me before. Both Pecker and Cecil B. DeMented were really R-minus movies. In Cecil B. DeMented, I had a gerbil going up someone's ass. So I didn't expect the NC-17. Some people say, "Well, you're just baiting the ratings board with this movie — what do you expect?" The film is non-explicit, which is what amazes me. It's just about sex. You can't make a movie about sex — if that's the whole subject — even if you don't show it. But sex isn't even the whole subject! There's also Catholicism, concussions . . . there are other subplots. But this is not a bad time for movies. And who knows? By opening night, the world could be changed. You don't know what's going to happen this year — it is an election year, and you know, Republicans aren't neuters.



The neuters-vs.-sex addicts battle is very political: Republicans and Democrats tend to paint each other in similarly broad strokes, increasingly demonizing the other side as the Coming End of Civilization.

The sex addicts go too far, too, in the end. As much as I hate Bush, certain liberals have this idea that they're the only person in the world that has someone in bed with them. I just want to say, "Would you fucking vote and shut up?" Or do something. Go out in the streets. Or you know, be something. I'm voting for Kerry's wife. I love her.



What's your political history?

I used to vote several times illegally. Picture ID ruined fake voting. I used to smoke pot and vote three or four times in California, always in San Francisco. C'mon, voter fraud is fun! You'd borrow IDs from people who were registered, and you'd go vote. But this was before picture ID. I voted for Shirley Chisholm about four times in San Francisco. No one stopped me. She would be appalled, you know? That's something people just don't do anymore. Voter fraud, sex in a voting booth. There's a lot of things that people forgot. And welfare fraud. We used to get, like, emergency food vouchers and buy crab meat and have dinner parties.



You originally envisioned Meryl Streep as Sylvia Stickles. Did you make an overture?

Well, I always want Meryl Streep for every part in every movie I make. I didn't approach her, because I hate having agents say, you know, "We'll have lunch." I've met her before, and she's lovely. She would be my ultimate get. I'm a big fan, I think she's a great actor. I'll see anything that she's in. I'm not saying that Tracey isn't great. She brings a real sense of humor to it. I thought that would work with the MPAA. That was my sneak attack: "But Tracey Ullman's in it! It's not a dirty movie!" They said, "We like the movie, but it's for adults." It's hard to fight 'em. It's much easier to fight the censor board in Baltimore or Peekskill, New York. Because they're, like, liberal censors. And liberal censors are the scariest. Real censorship is not the ratings board, it's the corporate censorship of the stores that won't sell NC-17-rated videos. Somebody has to change those laws so that NC-17 can be accepted. Jack Valenti ought to be standing outside with a picket sign.



Confirm or deny: reality — or at least reality TV — is starting to resemble a John Waters film.

I've never seen a reality TV show.



Never?

I'm against the principle of it. I think it's bad, bad taste. It's not proper, it's not witty. They're full of people I try to avoid in real life. I did watch part of The Swan, and they were treating them like morons! It's told so slowly, and they fake reality anyway. I'm for performances! I remember the Director's Guild, the Screen Actors Guild, ASTRA! Dialogue, the script! Pink Flamingos was my reality. Although Jackass is fun. The rest of TV, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not being a snob, but I read and go to movies. I can't do all three; it's impossible. I have a television so if 9/11 happens again, I'm prepared. But that's the only reason. And I won't stop buying books. The gene that makes you collect pulp fiction has been kidnapped by the DVD division. Keep buying books! Don't stop reading just because you want to look at extra features on the DVD!



What's the last book you read?

The Life of Lord Haw-Haw, the German Nazi who broadcast propaganda on the radio in Britain during WWII. I've always been obsessed by Lord and Lady Haw-Haw. It's the best name I've ever heard in my life. I don't like his politics, but sometimes when I'm alone, I pretend my name is Lord Haw-Haw. He's very well-known in Europe, but in America no one's ever heard of him. He's like Tokyo Rose. They hung him too, after the war.



Why does the general public still turn into giggling eight-year-olds whenever it's announced that an actor is going to show his penis on film?

Well, show business is based on that. Everybody wants to see everyone in every movie naked. That's why we have movies. That's probably the only reason people go, to imagine everyone in the movies naked.



Apparently, Baltimore has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the nation. I heard there was some sort of literacy campaign — they put up posters that said "Baltimore Reads" and the kids tried to change them to "Baltimore Breeds." But they spelled it "Breads."

And "bleads". Yeah, it was "Baltimore, the City That Reads," and they changed it to "bleads." It's not the murder capital anymore, it's now the V.D. capital. We were voted the ugliest people in the country by Travel & Leisure magazine.



What porn do you prefer?

Now, some reality in that, I like. I don't like gay porn, because everything's shaved. I hate all that — it's like, holy cockblock! They all look the same, and when they talk, it doesn't matter how long they've been to the gym. Bobby Garcia is my favorite pornographer. He has made thousands of these Marine tapes, he got busted at Camp Pendleton. They're basically like Andy Warhol's Blow Job, only the camera's back further. He films Marines jerking off, and then he tries to work his hand in, and more. Some of them could be huge porn stars. Some are hideous. He gets 'em to go as far as he can without getting beat up. Yes, Bobby is my favorite pornographer. Although like everybody, when he was younger, he got better looking boys. Bobby's been doing this a long time.



Who is your muse these days?

I don't really have one. There are people that I'm impressed by: Lord Haw-Haw, Johnny Walker Lindh, the 9/11 nymphomaniac — she was like Tracey Ullman's character in the movie! She had a concussion. Her husband was like, "She didn't see the building fall, she didn't know anyone had died. Something hit her on the head, like a pebble or something." On 9/11. She's someone else I've been obsessed by lately; I've followed all the news stories.

(top to bottom) Selma Blair, Tracey Ullman, and Johnny Knoxville in A Dirty Shame

Would you consider Johnny Knoxville a muse?

I thought Johnny Knoxville was more like a protégé, somebody who heard the Pink Flamingos call in a different time and on television. People jumped in shopping carts after they saw that movie; parents were incredibly frightened of it. He had male nudity in a show that was beloved by straight teenage boys, which was really confusing when I saw it. He seemed like a really good person to work with. I think he felt it some, too; he didn't resist too hard. I think he's going to be a big movie star. He already is, in a way. I mean, the movie was financed because he was in it.



Who is the filthiest person alive today?

I'd have to say Michael Jackson, even though I almost hate to persecute him. But I think maybe he isn't innocent. I haven't seen proof that he isn't, but I have met many pedophiles in my past, and he sure fits the bill! And anyone that names their child Blanket is not . . . well, I'm upset by it. I read every article. I can't not read every little thing about him. But I hate the prosecutor. He has nine children, so right away I don't trust him. And he obviously was pissed he didn't get Jackson the last time.



I've read Michael Jackson Was My Lover, which is illegal in this country, but you can get it on the Internet for $1,000. I don't know if it's true, but it's the most hilarious book I've ever read in my life. I mean, in a terrible way. There are chapters about tampons and enemas. Michael Jackson has no friends, obviously. There's no one to tell him not to get your mugshot taken looking like Joan Crawford. Did you read the article in the Enquirer that claimed the doctor who did Michael Jackson's nose cut off his earlobe? That doctor should be arrested. That's illegal, you know? I'm mad at that doctor.

Other filthiest people alive: the guy on trial for war crimes — what's his name, the trial's been going on for two years. Remember Gertrude, that nun who had all those people killed in Rwanda? People forget all this. Rwanda is, like, forgotten. She ordered the death of thousands of people, lured them into some building and set it on fire.



I'll have to look that up.

You can find it. Sister Gertrude, one mean bitch.



I thought I was pretty well educated about fetishes, and I had never heard of "tromboning" before this film.

Johnny Knoxville told me about that. While I was writing the screenplay, people would offer up fetishes. Has anyone ever really tromboned? I know a lot of perverts, and no one ever said they did that. I haven't. But you never know.



Have you seen the Paris Hilton sex tape?

People offered it to me, but I didn't take it. I'm not interested in looking at her vagina. Nothing personal. I'm not interested in her in any way. I skip all articles. Andrea Peyser [of the New York Post] and Paris Hilton get the same reaction from me. I turn the page. I don’t wish her ill, but she's no Edie Sedgwick.



Do you foresee A Dirty Shame getting the Broadway musical treatment?

Oh, it would be nice. Like A Chorus Line with sploshers. And Ronnie the Rimmer singing a song about an upper decker!



How do you pick your female stars?

I pick an actress who's a comedian, someone who has a sense of humor about themselves, someone who I think will be a team player and can play a real person, in a real life. Melanie Griffith had to play an insane movie star, but there are very few women over forty in Hollywood that are stars and can play a regular person who lives in Baltimore. They've been altered. Everyone's used to it, but I don't want them like that. It isn't normal.



Which of your films would you recommend as a date movie?

This one! This one, you're either going to get laid really really easily, or it'll be like that scene in Taxi Driver when Cybill Shepherd goes, "OH MY GOOOOD!" It elicits one of those true reactions. I would say that Pink Flamingos is not a great date movie, although I've met many people who wanted to marry me, people who've named their babies Divine. So it certainly has worked on some dates. But a lot of people say they feel like having sex after watching A Dirty Shame. Not that it's a sexy movie, but it does make you think, "Let's try something new!"



Name your top three fetishes.

You really think I'm going to tell you?

Yes?

You're wrong. I'm a little smarter than that. I'll make the money off it, not you. I always say that someday I'm going to write Sex: My Life and have a chapter on it. I don't know that I'll ever do that, because I believe you shouldn't tell everything. People don’t have to know. When I read stuff from people who tell everything, I always think that they don't have anyone else to talk to, and they didn't pay their shrink bills.



I did want to ask you why, for someone for whom no holds are barred, you're relatively discreet about your own sex life.

Discreet? I said I was gay! Gay's not enough?



You're not out there out there.

Well, I certainly had boyfriends in my life. I had three major ones. But they're not public figures. I never would fall in love with someone who would want there to be a story about it. I'm never attracted to famous people. I think they're cute, but you know what I mean. My boyfriends were always in Baltimore; they didn't want to be in the paper. So, and I can be fairly sure that if I die, people would keep the confidence – not that I'm ashamed of it, but it's my personal life. I don't think any of them would talk. [pause] Oh, somebody would, but not the three major ones. I don't feel an urge to tell you everything about them or what their habits are. People want to know, but I don't tell a lot. But I think I said I was gay, always, even when people didn't want to ask. I was on the cover of The Advocate once: they called me "America's most out director," and they never even had to ask me! They think it's more interesting, they think I'm, like, saying something that's never been said before. But I don't especially think just being gay is good either. There are terrible gay people and some really rotten gay movies, too. I don't think gay culture's all that. I like it mixed. I like it when every person that's hated, everyone who's in a minority, hangs around together. Those are my friends. Those are my people.



What do you want your epitaph to read?

I've always said just "rest in peace." But now I have a grave, I know I'll be buried. So I'll go with, "Smoke a joint and have sex!"
 n°




A Dirty Shame opens Sept. 24.

 
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