Savage Love

Cool story, bro.

Which has anything to do with what, AT? He wasn't talking about marriage, per se. He was responding to another Savage rant about whether being gay is genetic or the result of choices and varying influences on a person. Did the word marriage even appear anywhere in Savages closing salvo or uh, ok's comment? No. So I would say that, yes, uh, ok is a genius compared to someone that doesn't even read the comments.

uh,ok... nailed it

I'll cede a point to lrn2evolution. However, hmm's point that homosexuality occurs all the time in nature is a silly point. My dog does a lot of things that are instinctive(humping pillows, eating shit, etc.) that I wouldn't use as a rational for homosexuality being a genetic condition or because it occurs in other species. There are many factors that go into the choice to be gay, but I believe that it is just that, a choice.

Point was already ceded, thank you very much. Gay penguins nurturing offspring doesn't quite fit into the argument of furthering the species in terms of the fact that the babies most definitely did not come from same sex parents. There aren't gay animals, there are only animals with instincts in which they will hump anything. If you want to put human homosexuals in that category, then that doesn't exactly do much for the cause, does it?

I think rather than "point was already ceded" you meant, "I've already clearly lost this argument".

The possibility of homosexuality surviving evolution is eloquently explored in the new scientist article, the rest of the ramblings in this thread are a moot point. All other references to animal behavior are unnecessary.

Dan makes a very simple point - if being gay is a choice, anyone should be able to make that choice. Otherwise, it's not a universal choice, and gay people do, in fact, exist. Shocking, I know.

^What MS said. Also, it always made sense to me from a natural standpoint to have a minority of a species (including humans) be homosexual. Think about it... if every sexual pairing reproduced, it may cause overpopulation and overconsumption of resources, and then the whole species would be screwed. As a disclaimer, it's just an idea and I don't know if there's any science to back it up, but things like infertility, miscarriages, and homosexuality do seem to serve a purpose (and should not be stigmatized regardless).

In what universe does a small percentage of homosexuals in a given society imply that "the entire species can't multiply"?

Most of the population is still heterosexual and horny, and knowing about the existence of gay people isn't a particularly effective form of birth control.

Why do people misunderstand what evolution is about? So many times you see people think it's about working towards a single uber-creature with all the best features..... when it's actually the opposite.... it's about creating as many different versions so that the species will survive whatever nature throws at it..... a single version no matter how fast, strong or fertile is extremely vulnerable to being wiped out by a virus or change in environment ... I'm Irish ... think about the potato blight :-)

I was wondering about that one, is it true?

Yeah, I second that. Molly is creepy as fuck.

And exactly what makes it creepy? .. and who made you click on the link?

It's creepy to me because she has children. And you can see her face in many of the shots. Man I would be so humiliated if my parent ever did some shit like that and put it on the internet for everyone to see. *shivers*

No one made me. I chose to click and now I don't anymore. And PARENTS are of course adults who make their own sexual choices, but discretion is also a factor. Kids go online, and I would hate for a kid to find that about his own mom, or have it brought to his attention by a classmate. Sexy naked times do not need to be chronicled on the internet for everyone to see. And what you said about Christians was uncalled for.

@lezley -- love it!

Really though, people on this site are ridiculous about the internet. It's a big fucking place. Unless it shows up when they google their parents' name, the kid is almost definitely not going to randomly stumble on it. It's a lot more likely they'd actually walk in on/overhear goings-on, a good ole fashioned scarring as old as shame. Your house is a lot smaller than the internet.

@Signs... you're new to the whole "humor" thing, aren't you.

nice

To quote Melvin Udall: "I think of a man, and remove all reason and accountability."

thanks, ugh, for representing those of us out here who actually do care about our partners feelings. also, the woman writing for advice seemed bothered by the fact that her husband is lying to these other women as well as hiding the fact that he was seeking more threesome partners from her. her instincts are probably telling her that something is wrong here.

Glad someone mentioned this, I think Dan's advice was strange. This element of their relationship may also have been just for them to look for a third together, with the woman making the final decisions. What this woman's husband is doing just seems super shady.

Proving that it is wrong or immoral is impossible. Proving it, yes. But if you are religious, then that's where the belief that it is wrong comes in to play. Those who are religious and in favor of gay marriage, which was a religious sacrament long before the law got involved, are those who believe that God should conform His will to ours and not the other way around.

Sorry Nope, but you're wrong.

Good idea, because never in the history of journalism has anybody ever written an article proving a point that the author wanted proved. If I wanted to bother, I could find an article that proves your point incorrect which would actually prove nothing. But hey, thanks for trying to sit at the big-kids table.

And you're another condescending internet blowhard that claims that their education makes them an expert on history from the beginning of time. I read an interesting book denying that the Holocaust ever happened and because that was what I wanted to hear, it must be absolutely true, right. Gospel is gospel. Gay isn't natural. And you're state of historical fact doesn't match up to MY research and education. You aren't anything other what you've claimed about me.

And no-one should hire anyone as illiterate as bond.

Once more in english please. And this person that did thorough research can't put together a coherent sentence. There you go, the science proves it once and for all.

Surprised, I think you made the best point of anyone in this forum. All you choicers, please take a closer look at this guy's comment.

You all should look at the top of the comments. uh, ok hit it right on the head. It isn't a choice like what you have for breakfast. A person decides they are gay based on influences and factors that they may not even be aware are occuring. Nobody, repeat, NOBODY is born gay. It occurs, just not naturally. And I don't want to hear about the animal kingdom, either.

You are so quick to discredit me for my opinions simply because we disagree. I could email you my resume and anything else and it wouldn't matter to you because you don't want to hear it. I stand by my statement that nobody is born gay. The may end up that way based on external influences, but nobody is born that way.

Probably the same credentials as everybody else on this site; the kind that everybody else will debunk if they disagree with you. :-)

Well accept for that most of us gays can't legally get married. So should those of us who like to have sex with someone just not do it ever? I get what saying though. My church as a kid compared it to alcoholism. Some of us should just never drink apparently. Consequently, I'm still fucked up. I can't date and no therapist can cure me. This is what people like Mr. Cummins cause.

I get kind of hung up on the choosing to be gay thing, because Dick and I have had some good times, but I only ever fall for with women and if I ever crush on men it's because they're some sort of archetype I like. I didn't really consider the possibility that I was anything except maybe a little bi until I was in my early 20s. I consider myself emotionally gay, if that makes sense, but my hormones are bi.

Now, that said, say that I've slept with a number of women that is somewhere in the upper teens. I would say that AT LEAST half of them are not in any way gay. Some were culturally-motivated LUGs and some were classic erotic tourists but they're not lesbians, they were interested in having sex with a woman and (probably because I am not super-culturally-politically-etc-invested in Team Dyke) I am totally down for taking a straight girl on a short cruise to the islands.

I contrast this with my gay male friends who say that if a dude has your dick in his mouth after the age of sixteen, nineteen times out of twenty that dude is GAY.

This may be cultural, but even so it either argues against Dan's Born This Way-ism or argues that it's different for women than men.

well, yeah, that's what I said. I think men may be different than women, though I think a big, big part of that is cultural.

my point is that *my* experience is that having gay sex is a choice, at least for most women I've had gay sex with, that doesn't necessarily mean you're gay. Being gay may not be a choice, I am undecided on that, but having gay sex is a choice. It's a choice I'm TOTALLY in favor of :), but a choice nonetheless.

I think the "born this way" crowd that Dan speaks for is speaking from a cultural experience of personal struggle and perceived otherness that doesn't necessarily have that much to do with which bits you like to rub together once you're a grownup. I mean, I don't have a wrenching coming-out narrative. When I told my dad I was gay he said something to the effect of "well, we knew that when you got your soccer scholarship." Most gay women I know don't have difficult coming-out narratives unless they also have lots of other difficult narratives in their lives that don't necessarily have anything to do with being gay.

I can't wait for the fad that must be influencing your spelling and grammar to die out, because it's driving me nuts.

You won't be missed.