Savage Love
My fiance gets mad and hits things — but he'd never hit me, right?
By Dan Savage
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My fiancé is awesome. I'm very happy we are getting married. We are in our early thirties. But… he has tantrums. When he gets upset, he literally throws things, punches things (never me), and screams obscenities. What makes him upset? Losing his keys, being overcharged at the supermarket, missing the subway. These moments are humiliating for me. On top of that, I had an abusive father who hit me and, though my fiancé would never in a million years hit or abuse me, his tantrums remind me of those childhood experiences.
I have tentatively broached the subject of therapy, but he is not interested. I don't know what to do.
— Frustrated Fiancée
He hasn't hit you… yet.
I'm not saying he'll definitely get around to hitting you, FF, but a man who goes apeshit when he misses the subway is likely to go apeshit on his wife sooner or later. Marriages are more stressful than commutes. And I'm sorry, but it's a disturbing sign that you're already tiptoeing around this guy ("I have tentatively broached the subject") and making excuses for him ("My fiancé would never in a million years hit or abuse me").
Emergency rooms, divorce courts, and graveyards are filled with women who once said, "My fiancé would never in a million years hit me."
The time for tentative broaching has passed, FF, and the time for confrontational confronting and ultimatums has arrived: he gets his ass into therapy and gets a grip on his anger issues, or the wedding is off. And this can't be about seeing a therapist once or twice to mollify you. He has to solve this problem before you pick out cake toppers. And if he won't get help, or if he can't solve this problem even with help, do not marry him.
I'm female, bi, mid-twenties, into kink — bedroom-only BDSM stuff — and involved in the local kink scene in NYC. I'm not into public sex or group sex; that's just not appealing to me. One of my closest friends is having a birthday party. Most people do a bar crawl, but this friend is hosting a straight-up orgy. I don't want to be a no-show — it's her birthday! — but sitting around fully dressed, trying to make small talk with someone while a fisting scene is taking place two feet away? AWKWARD. I thought about going for the first half, while people are drinking, and leaving before it turns into an orgy. But what excuse could I give to bail?
— Wallflower At The Orgy
How about the truth?
If you're mature enough to be a part of NYC's kink scene, you're mature enough to say this to your friend: "I love you, but orgies just aren't my thing. I'll be at your party — I wouldn't miss it! — but I'm going to quietly slip out before the first fist disappears into the first orifice."
If anyone should be able to hear that without taking offense, WATO, it's a member of an organized kink scene. All organized kinksters ask of each other is an open mind about kinks generally, thoughtfulness about consent and safety specifically, and clarity about boundaries absolutely. No one in a kink scene expects that all kinks — and group play is a kink — appeal to all kinksters equally.
So go to the party, wish your friend a happy birthday, then head for the door when you hear the snap of the first latex glove.
I am a twenty-eight-year-old woman, living in a town with a big military base. About a year ago, I noticed this really torn-up-looking guy sitting by himself in a bar. It turned out his wife had just been deployed and was going to be gone for nine months. He said he didn't think he'd make it. We wound up having sex. I moved in a few days after that. The whole thing revolved around nobody asking questions. Over time, I fell in love with him, and I thought he fell in love with me. If I thought about the future, I told myself he'd leave his wife for me.
Yesterday, he woke up and said, "It's over. She's coming home today." I was crying and crying while he kept coming up with these unbelievable lines: we had a good thing, he'd miss my love, I should try to remember the magic. Then he told me to look away so he wouldn't have to watch me crying!
I know I was a fool, Dan, but who was the bigger jerk?
— Sad Eyes
Seeing as you spent the last nine months attempting to be the author of someone else's misery — his wife's misery — only to wind up being the author of your own, SE, it's kind of hard to feel sorry for you. I suppose you deserve some credit for acknowledging that you're a jerk — you did, after all, ask me to determine which one of you is the bigger jerk — but I gotta say that your jerkiness is the kind that makes me want to break out my brand-new-asshole-carving knife.
But he's the bigger jerk.
My reasoning: he took up with another woman during his wife's absence, and he allowed this other woman to move into the home he shared with his wife. The other woman avoided conversations about the future because she was afraid of finding out that she didn't have one; he avoided conversations about the future because he was afraid the other woman would pack up her pussy and leave if he told her she didn't have one. And then he tossed the other woman out on her ass the very day his wife returned to the States, giving her very little time to make other living arrangements.
That makes him the bigger jerk, IMO. You both deserve new assholes — but he deserves a slightly bigger one.
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Commentarium (40 Comments)
@FF: Therapy, now. My ex-husband had a temper that almost no one saw, but he could flip a mood from happy to furiously angry over a triviality. He ended up being abusive: mostly emotionally and verbally, but also physically on occasion (about ten or so times over the course of our ten years together).
I'm not sorry we're divorced, but I do think if I had been able to get him into therapy early on, we might still be together. Post-divorce, he was diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder: from what I hear, he's doing better now after therapy. It will be a great thing for your fiancé if he gets into therapy now, even if you decide this is too much of a red flag and end the engagement: it could help him have a better chance at working to become a functional adult who can exist healthily in a relationship. It took my leaving for my ex to realize the extent of his problem, and by then there was too much damage between us to salvage what was left.
I think, by now, all of us women understand that we tend to have a bit of a complex when it comes to men who are damaged or hurt. While not healthy, it's understandable...but what isn't understandable is these women who will spread for any married man in a bar with a sob story and then carry that out into daylight for an extended period of time. There needs to be a more compassion towards our gender (it's obviously misdirected).
And if the need to rescue something is so strong, go adopt a dog from the shelter. Less heartbreak, way more loyalty.
Some of us don't. If a guy doesn't have his shit together, I am not a mother and I want no part in his bullshit.
So by saying "All of us women", you are being INCREDIBLY general. And the implication that she's a slut for it ("spread for", fucking Christ), IN spite of the fact that they are BOTH responsible parties is just fucking obscene.
I'll be stepping over into the "Not All Women" side of things here. I know it's easy to slip into easy generalities, but seriously, I have never given two figs for a random broken man. Crying in a bar about his wife's deployment does not make me think 'Sexy Good Times' and never will. Similarly, I feel quite a bit of compassion for other women, which I don't see a whole heap of in your comment.
"Spread for" is a grim turn of phrase. Perhaps time would have been better spent looking at why it is that some men are so easy with using overly-compassioned women for their own sexual gratification as soon as their wives leave shore?
Not so easy to see our own faults. I'd also say "damage doesn't turn ME on!" but, I don't know... ask your friends some time.
Well said, Dee.
Dee and Jess- I agree with everything you both said.
Sad Eyes-You two did what you did. Two people had a great time for 9 months. I'm actually happy for the good times you had. Judging never makes life better--it's what we do to feel bad for whatever reason we want to feel bad. Dan-Don't encourage such judgments. Sad Eyes likes romance, as does her sweetie. Get her out onto the next thing in her life. That's why she wrote!
"Judging" serves more purpose than simply to give us a bit of made-up angst, for pity's sake. Judging my behaviour when I stole a lip gloss as a child is what reminds me that it is not okay to steal a pair of shoes that I love now or, say, attempt to steal another woman's husband. Personally, I think that trying to pretend that judging is an unnatural state of being--rather than a needful part of being socialised creatures--is naive and detrimental.
Judge more. Judge a whole lot more. If you made a vow to remain faithful to someone and then broke that vow without even giving them a heads up for the entire nine months that they were away (seriously, was he just pretending that another woman wasn't living in his house when he called his wife? I can't even imagine), then a little judgement might make you realise that this is hurtful, disgusting behaviour.
In the same way that I can't just relieve myself in the middle of town when I realise that my bladder is full without getting the full judgement of the townsfolk, I also cannot just screw a random guy when I get an itch without paying for my actions with my partner. Our actions have consequences. Judge now saves judging later, damn.
PF, I was with you until the end of the first sentence. But I would continue with, "You two did what you did - now own it." Sad Eyes, you did a bad thing. Fortunately for you, the worst of the issue is not yours to deal with - it's your lover's job to explain things to his wife when she finds out (and don't delude yourself into thinking she won't find out - she's DEFINITELY going to notice that there was another woman living in her house for nine months). GTFO, figure out whatever it is that made you act so self-destructively and immaturely, and use that knowledge to curb such self-destructive behaviour in the future.
Hear hear, @Jess.
girlj makes an important point, especially in their last sentence. We can’t change the past, so we have to figure out how to make better decisions in the future.
You have no idea what you are talking about Dan. I have destroyed inanimate objects, yet never hit anything alive in anger. Stop promoting the stupid fear women have of men with real emotions.
But this guy's outbursts are scaring her and I'd bet that he wants her to be scared.
"real emotions"? a tantrum, in *public* about something as small as a missed train is not a "real emotion". it is an anger management problem. it is entirely different from being upset over something big and meaningful and taking it out later by destroying something inanimate to diffuse some of the tension - that's a valid (if expensive) coping strategy. if his behavior is reminding her of childhood abuse, that is a red flag she should not ignore.
Argyle - Oh get over your self-righteous indignation. A grown man who has a temper tantrum over missing the subway is a danger to himself and those around him. Even if that danger is *only* to their mental state and equilibrium. The fear of an enraged male is hardly a 'stupid fear' women have, and your 'real emotions' phrase is whitewashing an anger management problem. Truth hurts boyo, look into getting help before you damage someone you really care about. Mental damage hurts just as bad - with fewer visible scars.
Agreed, I think the most telling part is how she needs to reassure Dan (but really herself) that there is no threat of violence against her. If she really wasn't worried, it wouldn't have even crossed her mind as something she would need to defend.
Oh Argyle, "men with real emotions" don't frighten women, men who don't seem able to control their emotions do. Not controlling your rage isn't a real emotion, it's a sign of emotional instability and immaturity. Between tantrum throwing douches and passive aggressive little whiners, the state of manhood today is sort of troubling, actually.
Argyle, you may have a Y chromosome but you don't know much about your fellow men. You sure don't speak for me.
And this is not about gender, it's about growing the fuck up. It isn't manly, it's infantile.
Well said. Way to let him know he shouldn't generalize so much.
FF ~ The control of a persons anger and there ability to judge what is an appropriate response to certain situations is vital part of our human development but without sounding too sexiest it is even more important for men who in general are the physically stronger sex. I could never be with a partner who I felt could not control his temper in situations that quite frankly are yes annoying but should not produce rage. If you are planning on getting married, one can assume that one day you may have a child with this person, what happens the first time the child pee's on your bed, draws on his shirt, spills their drink on Daddy.....the list is endless....considering he can't control his anger at a missed train I would find it hard to be able to trust him around a child. I think you need to be very open with him about this, he needs help with his anger management, its as simple as that.
Hi Wallflower....
Good for you knowing your boundries and what makes you uncomfortable. I agree with the advice, anyone who is organising a party within the kink community would be totally repectful of your own personal choices. Explain to your friend that you will come along, but that when you feel the time is right you will leave. I have been 2 a couple of private parties of this nature and I have to say, there was a lot of fun, sociable partying before any of the nakked stuff started.
Mollyxxx
https://mollysdailykiss.com/
I don't understand how this guy moved another woman into his wife's home for nine months without any of his friends or neighbors noticing. Is he just hoping that they don't ask about who this woman was or where she went when his wife comes home? And was Sad Eyes just ignoring the closets still full of the wife's civilian clothes or what?
FF - I would not jump to the conclusion that he will eventually hit you. But... what jumps out at me is that he is in his 30's and still acting out like that. As someone in their 30's myself, it would be difficut for me overstate how incredibly inappropriate that type of behavior is for someone that age. I probably know 50-100 people socially and not a single one of them would act like that over something as incredibly trivial as losing keys - I would never hang out with someone who did. He will end up teaching those reactions to your kids if you have any and other parents will not want their kids hanging around your kids if you have a husband like that. Just something to think about-
My Dad was like that. He never hit me, but the emotional abuse was miserable. I walked on eggshells up until I was a teenager, and at that point I started challenging him and yelling back. It took a long time to develop a relationship with him, and even now, it's still difficult to spend more than an hour at my parents house. While he knows not to take his frustrations with his shitty life out on me, (I didn't talk to him for two years), he still does it to my Mom and it drives me up the wall.
Point of the story, if your fiancée reminds you of your abusive father, that's kind of a giant red flag regardless of anything else. You're marrying your father. That's all there is to it. But in this situation you think you have control. You think you can fix him. You think that you can make this all better because you desperately want to fix your childhood. But you can't do that.
Before getting married, get some therapy for YOURSELF. Because ultimately, he's not really the problem. The problem is with the woman that just wants to fix her Daddy/Fiancée. And once you make a breakthrough and realize this and learn how to cope with it, I'm absolutely certain that you will not want to marry this guy. So stay with him if you must, because I know you aren't ready to leave him. But spend a year in therapy first. Go to support groups for family members of emotional abusers.
Spot on response, s. You pretty much summed up the contents of "Getting The Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. That book helped me break my pattern of finding women to "fix" and got me to the place where I was ready for my wonderful, problem-free second wife. I think "Frustrated Fiancée" would benefit from reading it as well.
Sad Eyes: you moved in a few days after you picked up a married man in a bar. A) You're a needy lunatic. B) Are you really expecting an ounce of sympathy from anyone?
Absolutely spot on.
I was the girl who always said "but he'd NEVER hit me". Married for 10 years of the temper tantrums in front of my friends and family... after the belittling comments in front of coworkers and friends... and he really never did hit me. One night I got a call from his friends who he had gone out drinking with after work.. I picked him up, was being courteous, not starting anything at all since he was in that condition and prone to hit asshole mode at the drop of a hat. As we're driving down the road, he reaches over, grabs the steering wheel and tells me that he hates my fucking guts and plows us headon into an oncoming truck. We both survived, we divorced and I'll never, never again make any excuse for anybodies anger issues. The warning signs are there, FF. Please, please.. pay attention and step away while you can.
Holy shit. Thank God you are okay and good for you for getting out.
Jesus Christ! Glad you are okay. That is the most extreme case of anger I've ever heard of.
Sad Eyes: I think I get it. You saw someone who was genuinely distraught over losing his wife and you were jealous and wanted a man who would feel that way over you. I think people in a healthy frame of mind would just go find their own man. Instead, you stepped into a situation and ruined that chance of happiness for all three of you. Was it solely your fault? Of course not. But, instead of assigning blame, it makes more sense to evaluate your own actions and see what you will do differently in the future. Advice: don't ever do this again. Sexual liberation does not give you the right to destroy lives in the name of satisfying your sexual desires.
The fact that his childish behavior embarrasses her (not to mention frightens her) should be enough alone to get her to bail on this emotional man-baby.
I hope that FF will read these comments and take them seriously and to heart.. An abuser always escalates.. I grew up in an abusive environment.. physical, emotional and sexual and for years ended up in relationships w/people who did things no one else would put up with.. like tantrums.. grown adults dont' have violent tantrums especially about missed trains and the like.. I told myself over and again that this was different... once you accept the abuse..and you already have because your still there it will only escalate.. Please leave this now or require him at least a year in anger management.. If there is no change then leave... if you absolutely must give him a "chance" then require that year commitment before you make a commitment for ever after. Please make this a requirement before you have a daughter writing to an advice columnist in 30 years about the abusive home she grew up in, with a father who threw tantrums even if he didn't hit mom.. the entire house was always on edge walking around dad tiptoeing because we didnt' want to make him angry and see his bad side.. and that bad side only grows with time.
@FF
I'm a partner who has anger issues and throws tantrums. My boyfriend doesn't let me get away with them. He gets mad at me and patiently explains every time why my behaviour is unacceptable. He doesn't apologize or make excuses for me. I'm dealing with my anxiety and he's helping me avoid triggers. He makes me feel accepted but responsible.
This has really helped.
FF: Please listen to Dan-- get into counselling together or call the wedding off. Don't subject your future kids to an abusive home environment, a shitty dad, and then the trauma of divorce. Even if you don't have kids, cut your losses now--let's say things don't work out--and seriously, I doubt this guy will join you in therapy--you'll be free to date again in your 30s, not your 40s when, let's face it, your options will be more limited. I'm just being purely pragmatic here. Also, you know what, this is a familiar story--my mother went through it and so did I (as her child--not in my own life--I know I deserve better than an immature, potentially violent baby with anger-management issues). I have a great guy and I know you can find one too--trust me, it makes life a lot less complicated.
That's really grat perspective to add. I dated a guy who seemed perfect on paper, but over time, he revealed a truly awful temper. He would fly off the handle at smallest provocation, and became increasingly jealous and resentful of any time spent away from him. I found myself walking on eggshells around him more and more, but at the same time, I loved him. It took me a long time to build up the courage to break it off with him, but it was the thought of bringing children into that situation that finally made things snap into perfect focus. One of the hardest, but best decisions I ever made, and now I have a very finely tuned sense and zero tolerance for that kind of emotional abuse.
FF, seriously, consider getting out. I am worried that maybe you're not contemplating this because of what he might do - to you (let alone to the furniture). Think about it some, and if that has any truth to it then confront it, confide in a friend, and enlist their help in getting an exit strategy together.
But even if you don't have a lurking feeling you're suppressing, you should seriously consider the possibility that you're in danger. Nobody at his age is unaware that these are excessive, frightening and self-indulgent reactions - it's the underlying behaviour that's significant here, not the target. You are definitely at risk while you're around someone who carries on like that. Not good.
And anyhow, it is so damn unpleasant. Who needs the static? If he can't grow up, calm down and take responsibility, then it augurs ill for the rest of your relationship anyhow.
Where do these photos come from???
I have a very simple rule - I don't date anyone who embarrasses me in public. Without putting to fine a point on it, FF, your fiance's behavior is unacceptable on several levels. You owe it to yourself to get out. Can you really picture a life with this person? Can you imagine your child knocking over a display at the grocery store, only to have your husband explode in a fit and scream at him? If that's not what you want in a partner, the choice is pretty clear.
Ppl like you get all the brains. I just get to say thanks for he asenwr.