Roundtable Discussion takes the intrepid 61FPS blogging team and pits it against itself in the search for deeper truth. The moderator for today is Bob Mackey.
This week’s conversation deals with the mythical and possibly endangered beast known as the Japanese RPG. The genre really seems to be suffering during this generation, for two major reasons: 1.) escalating development costs due to the new necessity of high-polygon, HD resources and 2.) developers’ inability to combat the most damning problems of the genre. Over the past few years, we’ve seen quite a few JRPGs hitting the shelves that feel half-finished at best; and even when a fully-realized JRPG comes along, I worry that the absolutely abysmal pacing the genre is infamous for will end up sucking all the fun out of what could be a fantastic game. To start us off, I have two basic questions: 1.) What does the genre need to do to become interesting again, and 2.) what do you think it will do?
On a side note, the only RPGs I’ve been interested in lately have been ports of remakes of classics. Is this a sign that the genre is becoming antiquated and only accessible to those (admittedly, quite a few at this point) with an understanding of its unique grammar?
Joe Keiser: I assume we're talking about current-gen console JRPGs here, as I feel the handheld JRPG field is perhaps the most vibrant it's ever been. To answer your questions:
1. Lots of JRPG ground has been broken on the PS2 in its twilight days. Final Fantasy XII, Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria, and the Persona series all did fascinating new things with the genre that begged to be explored further. That's why it was very strange to me to see such regressive RPG design in the likes of Lost Odyssey and its brethren. There's so much excellent recent prior work to look at! So why do some of these games look back so far?
This is not a very creative answer, but JRPG developers don't seem to be particularly bold these days and I'm trying to be realistic with my expectations.
2. Fortunately, men who are much more creative than me have been given years to come up with ways to make things interesting again. I think they will. I think the real problem developers have been running into this generation (besides the general Japanese console development malaise) is that there hasn't been a leading title to come out and show the little guys that actually, there is a market for JRPGs on Xbox 360 or Wii. All we've seen so far is supposedly "exciting" titles like Lost Odyssey meet general apathy at retail, which couldn't have been heartening to anyone holding any sort of purse strings. When the Level-5s or Square Enix internal teams of the world release something that cannot under circumstances afford to fail (does the game I'm thinking of have a large roman numeral in the title? Maybe.) I think you'll see the floodgates open again. Heck, maybe Tri-Ace will do it!
Maybe.
John Constantine: Hear, hear on the handheld JRPG scene. How’s that saying go? Where Dragon Quest goes, so goes the genre! What’s most telling about the preponderance of remakes on the DS and PSP (the lion’s share of them coming from Square-Enix) is that it indicates the birth of a brand new audience being inculcated with the genres unique grammar. These re-releases pull in both lapsed gamers as well as sell to those new gamers just getting reared on what’s available for the system. For every Final Fantasy, Tales, DQ, Star Ocean, etc rehash that hits the DS and PSP, there’s two brand new JRPGs with decidedly fresh mechanics waiting in the wings. Just look at stuff like Riz-zoawd, Atlus’ just-released My World, My Way, Yuusha no Kuse ni Namaiki da on PSP, and Yuusha 30. And how could I not mention that game we all love so dearly, The World Ends With You? Even Hironobu Sakaguchi’s DS debut, ASH, took some risks, as opposed to the stale traditionalism of his Xbox 360 games. ASH sucked, but it was different, right?
But this is the biggest Japanese genre in history, so what about the big, big systems. Given how reluctant the vast majority of Japanese developers have been to make anything for the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 (even the Wii really), it’s none too surprising that the few JRPGs to show up on those systems have been stale as week-old bread. Especially Mistwalker’s games. The Gooch made the type of games that made him famous, games that are just about two decades old now. It’s ironic then that Lost Odyssey was co-developed by the team behind the Shadow Hearts series, some of the freshest RPGs to grace the Playstation 2. Joe’s right: close to a decade old, and the PS2 is still seeing exciting new ideas in the genre. In addition to the examples mentioned, I think the most exciting evolution of the JRPG on the PS2 is also the exact franchise that has the best chance of bringing life to the genre on current home consoles. Yakuza, baby. The Yakuza games flat-out are JRPGs, just with a different kind of battle system. They’re fast, detailed games that succeed by foregoing some of classic JRPG design’s most tiresome tropes, i.e. having to talk to every single NPC, menu-based fighting, needlessly grueling level grinds. I sincerely believe that Yakuza 3 is going to be the game that finally pushes more devs into the next-JRPG-gen.
Yakuza also does precisely what I think needs to be done to make every other JRPG interesting again. It has legitimately good writing and plotting. Not okay writing. Not good-for-a-game writing. Just good writing. For a genre that’s sold itself on affecting narrative, the vast majority of writing in JRPGs is crap. But it has to be married to faster play, like you see in Yakuza, TWEWY, and FFXII to really make JRPGs great. Lost Odyssey had good writing but the game, what you played, was sllllllllloooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww. I genuinely think that’s what’s going to happen too. I’m an optimist. Like you said, Bob, that Final Fantasy XIII trailer, against all odds, was exciting. The old way of things will stick around too. Gotta re-release something, right?
Cole Stryker: Before I even begin I must request that everyone read this, one of the best pieces of game criticism I've ever read. JRPG fans should prepare to be offended. It contains the following money quotes:
Western CRPGs have kept evolving because there has always existed consciousness of a direction towards which to evolve; JRPGs, meanwhile, have been going round in circles ever since their inception -- Fallout is worlds away from Akalabeth; not so Rogue Galaxy from Final Fantasy.
The only kind of evolution JRPGs have undergone is of a cosmetic nature: Final Fantasy was no Ultima, and its endless sequels had to be justifed in some way -- and so they were. CG or anime-style cutscenes and countless hours' worth of voice-acting and orchestral soundtracks were the justification, piled up, stacked and shoved inside cartridges...
Now then. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of JRPG's. It seems to me that the things holding JRPG's back are the very characteristics that define the genre. So I guess this is another way of saying that the best way to make a good JRPG is to not make a JRPG.
Firstly, expensive poly counts have to go in order for this genre to mean anything to me. I'm happy to see that recent portable JRPG's have done this, though I haven't played any of them. They practically had to, with the limited graphical capabilities. It's interesting how a dearth of technology can actually amount to a better game because it allows developers to cut the fat.
Secondly, we've got to lose the cutscenes. Kierkegaard tells it like it is in an epic burn, calling Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, "a groundbreaking JRPG comprised of a single 106-minute-long cutscene, whose only flaw was that it didn't give players the option to skip it." Oh snap, son. The cult of celebrity that JRPG composers enjoy also brings the genre down. Focus on what's under the hood, please.
In order to push the genre into new territory, JRPG's should decide whether they want to be actual role playing games or strategy games rather than a mediocre mixture of both. I'd much rather play a proper RPG like Planescape Torment or a proper strategy game like Advance Wars than a JRPG which offers an hamstrung version of each. Even my favorite JRPG franchise, Earthbound, is super guilty of this. The combat system, even the rhythm based one in Mother 3 is pretty mindless. Developers need ways to mix up the combat mechanics. Use Ice Power to kill Fire Demons. Fight Night Wraiths with the Heavenly Light Arrows. Yawn. Chrono Trigger made these weaksauce mechanics obsolete well over a decade ago.
Make them shorter. I just don't feel like investing 70+ hours on a JRPG. The last one I played was Baten Kaitos, a reasonably fun card-based RPG. I burned out halfway through and haven't played one since (except for the nostalgic Mother 3, for which I made an exception).
Now that I've covered where I think JRPG's should go, I'll talk about where they will go: Nowhere. There are too many people out there content to play bad games. The continued existence of the Final Fantasy franchise is proof enough.
Bob Mackey: Well, there you have it; another week, another great discussion. Feel free to weigh in with your own thoughts in the comments.
Related Links:
Roundtable Discussion: Where is the Handheld Version of Console Wars?
Roundtable Discussion: The Fandom Phenomenon Part 1
Roundtable Discussion: The Fandom Phenomenon Part 2
Roundtable Discussion: The Fandom Phenomenon Part 3